Leodis/Loidis

The origins and history of placenames, nicknames, local slang, etc.
User avatar
tyke bhoy
Posts: 2231
Joined: Wed 21 Feb, 2007 4:48 am
Location: Leeds/Wakefield
Contact:

Re: Leodis/Loidis

Postby tyke bhoy » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 1:21 pm

I'm by no means an expert but the existence of a ford does not nescesarily mean there was a settlement. We do know the Romans settled Chester, York, Lincoln and more locally Castleford where there was also a ford. Was their a trans-pennine road from Chester to York? If so I would imagine it would be fairly direct once out of the pennines and that would not mean diverting to Castleford. Leeds lies pretty much on a straight line between York and Chester.

As for the Calls that is quite possible particularly if there was a settlement pre Roman invasion. Settlements tended to be near a water supply in this case the river. Also remember that Kirk is a reference to a Church. While some of the Romans in Britain might secretly have practiced and spread christianity it wasn't until after 300AD that it could be openly practiced. After the Romans left christianity was squeezed mainly to the western fringes of Britain as the indigenous population reverted to paganism also brought by subsequent germanic and scandinavian invaders. This link suggests early settlement of Leeds was 7th or 8th century http://www.leedsminster.org/About-Us/History/
living a stones throw from the Leeds MDC border at Lofthousehttp://tykebhoy.wordpress.com/
warringtonrhino
Posts: 358
Joined: Sat 18 Feb, 2012 2:31 pm

Re: Leodis/Loidis

Postby warringtonrhino » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 3:14 pm

I have spent the last 40 years researching the history of the area of my childhood in Leeds, Seacroft, Crossgates Scholes Manston and Killingbeck. These are some of my notes which illustrate the problems of writing a history when there is very little evidence.
Until recently, maps were drawn by surveyors working for landowners. They often had misleading or embroidered features to make a political point, or exaggerate the sponsors ownership of property.
Builders Invoices are more reliable than building plans, because they prove the work was actually carried out and they always have a date. According to popular history books, the Romans invaded England in 55BC, but if you lived in the north of England they didn’t arrive until 115 years later. This demonstrate how misleading ‘history’ can be. Instead we need to use the available clues, common sense and logic to arrive at a likely version of our history which may not be the correct version, but will be more accurate than guesswork. Please bear in mind that the notes below refer to the areas of Leeds previously described

These are a few of my notes for the early periods based on research
458 A great storm destroyed many buildings.
515 A very severe winter, it was so cold that birds were being caught by hand
620 Barwick in Elmet was ruled by a british king named Cereticus, and was conquered by Edwin King of Northumbria
655 The battle of Whinmoor (Penda's camp at Hungerfields?)
890 The Tribal Hidage, a list of Anglo-Saxon tribes
'..Elmed saetna syxhund hyda..' which roughly translates '..Elmet dwellers six hundred hides..'
A hide was the land necessary to sustain a peasant household, thought to be approximately 120 acres, but in reality it varied according to the locality, and the tax requirements, in Elmet the land was well drained, so 120 acres per hide would have been appropriate.There were six hundred households in Elmet which covered parts of West and South Yorkshire, an area of about 2650 square miles (1,696,000 acres), of which 112 square miles (72,000 acres) was farmed (less than 5%)
It is likely that crops and livestock were farmed around Seacroft, although the Tribal Hidage gives no indication of the specific areas involved.
991 The severe winter and early frosts destroyed many crops.

This is part of my opening chapter which as is based on available clues, common sense and logic
Before the Ice Age Britain was part of the European mainland it was home to tigers, bears,
1000 BC Britain was covered with glaciers 600 feet thick, rocks beneath the ice were crushed and scoured like corn on a millstone, large boulders were reduced to pebbles, grit, sand and clay. When the ice retreated the larger rocks, carried at the front of the glaciers, were dumped, forming huge dams. Melt water flushed the loose material into the valleys which silted up behind the dams. Britain was cold, and very wet, the mountains were bare rock and the lowlands, vast areas of marsh with numerous lakes and ponds. It was too cold for most animals and vegetation was sparse.
As the climate improved, plants and animals colonised the area spreading from the south and east. Four ecological niches developed. Mountains, predominantly bare rock with isolated hollows, sparse vegetation unable to sustain grazing animals.
Uplands, had sufficient soil for plants, but being very exposed only hardy species could survive, these are the areas we now call moors downs and fells. Valleys and river plains each had deep rich soil, much of the land below 350 feet became covered by dense woodland, there were no fields or open spaces. The river plains were vast areas of marsh with numerous lakes and ponds, sedge, bullrush, catkin, poplars, and willows flourished. Most were drained, so that the deep fertile soil could be put to the plough, and support a growing population. The Vale of York was drained and cultivated, whereas parts of the Lincolnshire fenland have endured unaltered for 3000 years.
Much of our area was thick forest, existing specimens and local place names suggest that there were oak, beech, alder and elm. The only open ground was that to the north (Whinmoor Morwick and Red Hall) These occupy the eastern extreme of the true moors which stretch all the way from the Yorkshire dales to the Ouse flood plain. Pockets of this ancient moor land remain, place names also give clues to its existence; Moss Plantation (Shadwell),Adel Moor,Black Moor, Willow Garth and Win Moor, are all within this band. Bracken, heather, gorse hawthorn, blackthorn, willow, and rowan grew, especially along the becks.
4000 BC Early man found it easier and safer to live and travel along high level ridges, the shallow soil meant that small streams would drain quickly after rainfall. navigation was easier, there were fewer trees to fell and the open moor land afforded less opportunities for robbers and murderers. He would only venture into the valleys to, recover materials for thatching, hunt the animals in the forest, and to collect water for cooking and drinking. They existed in small family groups, hunted fished and ate wild plants, had no domesticated animals but used dogs to chase deer, boar and wild horse. living in Their homes made from woven branches and mud. They made weapons for hunting from flint, and used bones to make needles and hooks. When they had exhausted the supply of food, they moved into another area.
2500 BC Man had started to raise crops and livestock, he clear woodland, to make pasture for the livestock, and raise crops of wheat barley and beans. Timber was used to build houses, shelter for the animals and stores for food. They had metals which they used to make tools and utensils, brewed beer, and made butter. After growing crops in the same fields for three years the soil deteriorated, they had to move and find fresh land. Clearing a new farmstead took a lot of time and energy, often fights broke out when a family tried to steal a new site that someone else had toiled to set up. If man was in our area, he left no lasting clues. He may have cleared the areas at Limewood, Stanks and Seacroft, which were later adopted by families setting up farms on these sites.
500 BC Celts had spread from central Europe into Britain. A tribal family lived in huts that were grouped together and often enclosed within stout timber fencing on top of a bank. They were the first people to have permanent homes that consisted of a single circular room 15-25 ft across. Walls were stone and the roof, a conical framework of timber, was thatched using reeds. They kept goats, sheep, cattle and pigs, and grew wheat, barley, parsnips, turnips, beans and cabbages.
They enjoyed fighting, farming and feasting and were particularly proud of their long hair which was often decorated with beads. They washed and groomed regularly, men grew moustaches but not beards they wore tunics and leggings. The women wore dresses everyone had leather footwear and a cloak for inclement weather. Settlements, being permanent, were given names. Early maps show rows of banks and ditches, running parallel with wyke beck, on the open ground west of Killingbeck Hospital. 'Kil', is the celtic word for chapel , so for the first time we may have evidence that man lived in the area.

It took nearly 5 years to research and write the Foundry Mill chapter, so progress is slow.
but I have a database of information of the area described above, which I am happy to bring to Leeds and make available to anyone who is interested. My history ends a 2000.
User avatar
blackprince
Posts: 707
Joined: Tue 04 Sep, 2007 2:10 pm

Re: Leodis/Loidis

Postby blackprince » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 4:51 pm

tyke bhoy wrote:I...……….. Was their a trans-pennine road from Chester to York? If so I would imagine it would be fairly direct once out of the pennines and that would not mean diverting to Castleford. Leeds lies pretty much on a straight line between York and Chester. .......................
Yes. The route was Deva-Mancunium-Skipton-Ilkley- Adel- Tadcaster-Eboracum. There is a stretch of the road near where I now live which I often walk along.The stretch I walk on near Chester (Deva) is part of Watling Street. I don't know if the trans Pennine road was named. I do have a large scale OS map of roman roads somewhere , which I will have to dig out. In the meantime maybe we should just call it the M LXII :)
It used to be said that the statue of the Black Prince had been placed in City Square , near the station, pointing South to tell all the southerners who've just got off the train to b****r off back down south!
User avatar
tyke bhoy
Posts: 2231
Joined: Wed 21 Feb, 2007 4:48 am
Location: Leeds/Wakefield
Contact:

Re: Leodis/Loidis

Postby tyke bhoy » Sun 30 Dec, 2018 10:40 am

Thanks WR for sharing your detailed research.

While not nescesarily disagreeing you say that the Roman's only reached the north of England circa 160AD. How does that fit in with Hadrians wall being built 40 years earlier and the lesser known Antonine wall across Scotland's central belt which was started 20 years after Hadrian's wall?

Also while you mention some of the northern suburbs of what is now Leeds, I think Polos is trying to tie down a date and more information for the settlement that was to become Leeds and spread from the aire eventually engulfing those northern suburbs and many others to the east, west and south. Do you have any information on that settlement which was probably north of the river and centred somewhere between the moder Leeds and Crown Point bridges?
living a stones throw from the Leeds MDC border at Lofthousehttp://tykebhoy.wordpress.com/

User avatar
tyke bhoy
Posts: 2231
Joined: Wed 21 Feb, 2007 4:48 am
Location: Leeds/Wakefield
Contact:

Re: Leodis/Loidis

Postby tyke bhoy » Sun 30 Dec, 2018 10:49 am

Thanks Black Prince your ancient 'M62' certainly makes some sense as a later forerunner of the M62 followed a similar route at least as far as Skipton and the canal builders would certainly have been looking for the most easty traverse of the Pennines. What is curious though is that having reached Ilkley why not just continue along the fairly flat Wharfe valley to Tadcaster instead of the southern diversion to Adel and then back north? Not only does it appear a diversion but it also meant at some stage climbing the ridge that at various stages constitutes Ilkley Moor, Otley Chevin, Pool Bank or Harewood Bank.
living a stones throw from the Leeds MDC border at Lofthousehttp://tykebhoy.wordpress.com/
warringtonrhino
Posts: 358
Joined: Sat 18 Feb, 2012 2:31 pm

Re: Leodis/Loidis

Postby warringtonrhino » Sun 30 Dec, 2018 1:42 pm

tyke bhoy wrote:Thanks WR for sharing your detailed research.

While not nescesarily disagreeing you say that the Roman's only reached the north of England circa 160AD. How does that fit in with Hadrians wall being built 40 years earlier and the lesser known Antonine wall across Scotland's central belt which was started 20 years after Hadrian's wall?

Also while you mention some of the northern suburbs of what is now Leeds, I think Polos is trying to tie down a date and more information for the settlement that was to become Leeds and spread from the aire eventually engulfing those northern suburbs and many others to the east, west and south. Do you have any information on that settlement which was probably north of the river and centred somewhere between the moder Leeds and Crown Point bridges?
I was trying to explain that history is very fluid, and we need to decide which 'facts' we accept.
The first Roman invasion of England, which is the one that most school children learn, was by Julius Caesar in 55BC. The actual start of the Roman occupation was in AD43 when Claudius landed in Kent. York was established as a Roman city in AD74 when Claudius marched the 9th legion from Lincoln.
Your dates are probably the most reliable, but it depends on which of the two invasion dates you chose as the starting point.
As mentioned earlier school children would probably say that AD55 was the correct date, because it's what they have been taught.

I know that the northern suburbs are not at the Calls, I was trying to demonstrate that pre domesday history for anywhere, is going to rely on very few recorded 'facts' and a lot of speculation based on common sense. One technique that I often employ, is to put myself back in history and ask myself the questions which the early settlers would have needed to resolve. Why do we need to build a new settlement? What is the best place to build a settlement which will give us the best outcome. What are the pros and cons of the location.etc etc .This is one method that Polos may wish it use for the centre of Leeds.
User avatar
blackprince
Posts: 707
Joined: Tue 04 Sep, 2007 2:10 pm

Re: Leodis/Loidis

Postby blackprince » Sun 30 Dec, 2018 6:05 pm

Hi Warrington Rhino,

I enjoyed reading the opening passage of your book. Thanks for posting it. One minor editorial correction - I think you meant 10,000BC rather than 1000BC (3rd Para) for the end of the last Ice Age.

Did you come across any hard evidence for the Harrying of the North ( or the Wasting of the North) in winter 1069/70? I just wonder if it left any physical evidence or written records in the areas of Leeds you are researching?
BP
It used to be said that the statue of the Black Prince had been placed in City Square , near the station, pointing South to tell all the southerners who've just got off the train to b****r off back down south!
warringtonrhino
Posts: 358
Joined: Sat 18 Feb, 2012 2:31 pm

Re: Leodis/Loidis

Postby warringtonrhino » Sun 30 Dec, 2018 7:36 pm

You will find many spelling mistakes etc in my notes, I am dyslectic . My wife ,who has no interest in history, sometimes checks before chapters are added to the 'final script'

The hard evidence can be found in the difference in the value of Seacroft in 1066 after the Norman invasion (£4) and the value at the Domesday valuation in 1086 (20p)
This is an short extract from my research notes for that period; complete with my spelling mistakes.
991
The severe winter and early frosts destroyed many crops.
1066
Duke William of Normanday defeats and kills King Harold of England at Hastings and in December is consecrated king. He gave land to his most loyal supporters, these were Mense Lords, who in return promised to provide arms and troops.Noble tenants of the mense lords were known as vavasours
Seacroft was valued at £4.
1067-70
The population rebel against their new king, the Normans had to live in closed communities, to protect themselves they built castles.In the north, where the revolt was particularly strong, they took revenge by destroying property, and stripping men of their manorial rank.
1080
Leeds was a farming village with a population less than 300
1086
King William needed to raise money through taxation and to billet his army around the country to control the locals . It was important to know how many troops an area could sustain, and where the concentrations of population where.
He instigated a survey of England which became known as Domesday.
The questions asked were as follows
'Here follows the inquiry into the land made by the king's barons, on oath of the sheriff of the shire and of all the barons and their frenchmen, and of the whole hundred, the priest, the reeve, and six villeins of each village; in order' (they asked)

The name of the estate
Who held the estate
How many hides
How many ploughs on the demesne
How many ploughs among the men
How many villeins
How many cottars
How many slaves
How many free men
How many sokemen How much wood
How much meadow
How much pasture
How many mills
How many fishponds
How much has been added or taken away
How much taken altogether
How much was the estate worth
How much was each free man worth
How much was each sokeman worth

All this to be given three times, at the time of King Edward, when King William first gave the estate, and as it is now.
Whether it is possible that more revenue could be taken from the estate than is taken now.

Domesday entry for Seacroft-
In Sacroft, Ode, and Nineling, Ulmar, Stainuef, Ragenild had seven carucates of land to be taxed and there may be four ploughs there. One Robert now has it of Ilbert, and it is waste wood pasture, four quartentens long and three broad. Value in King Edward's time (975-979) four pounds now twenty pence. (current values)
The dramatic drop in the value of the village was a result of the retribution meted out by the Normans (see 1067-70)
1150
Land between Cock beck and Carr beck was cleared for sheep rearing-huts were built
1181
A Preceptory of Knights Templars was established at Temple Newsam

User avatar
blackprince
Posts: 707
Joined: Tue 04 Sep, 2007 2:10 pm

Re: Leodis/Loidis

Postby blackprince » Mon 31 Dec, 2018 12:19 pm

Thanks for your evidence about the Harrowing of the North. I was unaware of this chapter in our history until it was mentioned to me by a local historian neighbour of mine about 10 years ago.
In your timeline do you think it's worth including Harold Godwinson's defeat of Harald Hardrada's Viking army at Stamford Bridge immediately prior to Hastings? I only suggest this because Stamford Bridge is closer to home ( ie Leeds) and the amazing march of Harolds housecarls from Wessex to Yorkshire in 4 days used the same roman roads mentioned earlier in this thread, so they must have passed close to Leeds on their march to Tadcaster.
Don't worry about -spellings btw. I have edited technical reports in a past life and I still make plenty of spelling mistakes and typos.

Happy New Year and good progress on your Opus Magnum!
BP
It used to be said that the statue of the Black Prince had been placed in City Square , near the station, pointing South to tell all the southerners who've just got off the train to b****r off back down south!
warringtonrhino
Posts: 358
Joined: Sat 18 Feb, 2012 2:31 pm

Re: Leodis/Loidis

Postby warringtonrhino » Mon 31 Dec, 2018 1:58 pm

My history only involves the area specific to my childhood. It does not conform to any historical or political boundaries. I made that decision because I needed to be able to confirm the 1950 -1990 details of the history from my own personal experience. I spent much of my childhood walking the area and sketching buildings and items of interest; one of my pencil drawings is simply a stack of clay drainpipes on the site of the old Chippendale Quarry at Scholes. I spent a lot of time talking to the owner and learning the history of the site. One consequence of dyslexia and not being able to read very well, is that you listen to people because it is often the only way to find things out. I also wanted it to be thorough history of a small area, not a diluted history of a larger area. It includes details of every building, street, bridge, footpath etc. when they were built, altered, used and demolished, the chapter on the Foundry Mill took several years to research. I therefore only study and include things which were in my area, or directly affected it. I have several references to the roads and tracks in the area, but mainly to do with constructing, rerouting, repairing and widening Sorry for along drawn out negative reply but I have been 40 years compiling it and am still nowhere near the end.
Attachments
pipes at chippies (2).jpg
pipes at chippies (2).jpg (1.23 MiB) Viewed 2523 times





Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests