Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

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bgams
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Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Postby bgams » Wed 31 Dec, 2014 8:52 pm

Ian,

Very nice guy David Maury. I think we may have worked together in some CID office, very likeable , go ahead sort of guy. Don't know when I last saw him; may have been at a funeral but certainly some time ago. You have talked about collar numbers in previous threads and as I recall Dave's number was 248 or something similar. As you know In the late 60's Leeds was such a small force that many officers were known by their collar number particularly when they had a common name.

Ap pro po another thread on this site relating to the 'Salam Hall' near Tetly's Brewery, Leeds. Can you recall whether or not that was the building where the Leeds City Police Promotion exams took place. If not it was somewhere in that area because some guys only attended so they could take a day off and the highlight of the day was lunch at the Crown Pub which was run by a very friendly Irish landlord and his son. If my memory serves me right the Crown was NOT a Tetly house. Is the Crown still there?

wbg
iansmithofotley
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Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Postby iansmithofotley » Wed 31 Dec, 2014 11:23 pm

Hi Brian,

I thought that you might have known Jim Parrott as his collar number was 891 and he probably joined the Leeds City Police about the same time as you (he joined in September 1967), unless one of your numbers was re-issued. He died in 1994.

The shooting you referred to may have been when Inspector Barry Taylor (West Yorkshire Police – ex West Riding) got shot and killed at Pudsey in 1970. I was a D.C. in the Leeds Crime Squad at the time and worked on the murder as a chauffeur/helper for Dennis Hoban. I went to many of the daily briefings. I have posted about this previously on Secret Leeds:

http://www.secretleeds.com/viewtopic.ph ... 6&start=10

Dick Ellis retired as a sergeant and died in 2010. Ian Herbert (Mick) Mills retired as an inspector and died in 2009. Dick was my first sergeant at Upper Wortley PS when I joined in 1965. I moved into C.I.D. at Ireland Wood PS in 1967 and Mick Mills and I shared the same desk. Our D.S. was David Harry Clarkson. David ended up as a Ch. Supt. and he was in charge of Holbeck Division when I was an inspector there in 1988. I understand that David has been quite ill recently and has returned to live in the Leeds area.

As far as I am aware, the others are all still with us. Mick Grubb retired as a D.C.I. and still lives at Horsforth. I have posted about Mick previously:

http://www.secretleeds.com/viewtopic.ph ... 7&start=30

John Cowman worked in the same C.I.D. office as Mick Mills and I in 1967. I seem to remember that John worked as a D.I. in Detective Training at Bishopgarth, Wakefield. I have lost track of him nowadays. His brother Walter, who you will know, was a Det. Supt. in W.Y.P. but then transferred to Lincolnshire Police where he was in charge of the C.I.D. as either a Det. Ch. Supt. or A.C.C.

Ian (Tatty) Grant and I were uniform sergeants on the same team at Dewsbury Road PS in 1972/73. We were both detective sergeants, together, in the Burglary Squad in 1975/76 when we worked in the building immediately next to Upper Wortley P.S. In later years, Ian obtained a law degree and worked as a D.I. in Detective Training at Bishopgarth, alongside John Cowman. I spent my last five years of service at Bishopgarth, at the same time as Ian, but in a different training role. Again, I have lost touch with Ian but I believe that he still lives in Leeds. After retirement, he worked at the Police National Legal Database Unit at Bishopgarth as a civilian.

Regarding you last post, Dave’s collar number was 225. I can still remember many of the collar numbers. The thing was that in the 1960’s, before Unit Beat Policing became the ‘flavour of the month’ around 1968, we all operated on a VHF radio system. Officers on foot patrol in all divisions, and particularly at Millgarth P.S., had no radios whatsoever but made half hourly ‘points’ at predetermined places such as telephone boxes (each beat had its own ‘points’ and times). The VHF radios were in Police cars and vans but also on the Velocette ‘noddy bikes’. In those days, nearly everyone outside of the City Centre rode ‘noddy bikes’ (with Vespa or Lambretta motor scooters for the policewomen who did not work on divisional shifts on nights – only at Brotherton House Policewomen’s Department). Millgarth P.S. just had two or three ‘noddy bikes’ – everyone else was on foot. Listening to the same VHF radio channel for the whole of Leeds for eight hours a day made you aware of everyone’s collar numbers as your collar number was your call sign. We all worked the same four shift system on the same teams at each police station so we knew the numbers of everyone throughout the city. We also got to know the city, and various parts of it, in areas where we had never worked just from listening to the radio. I rode a ‘noddy bike’ for my first two years.

If you remember, we also had a code for various types of incident e.g. X106 traffic accident, X109 sudden death, etc., etc. We also had a code XX99 which was for a police officer in difficulty (usually a big fight). I can remember going to many of these calls in other divisions, and particularly in the city centre, and everybody went from every division. I can remember going to a call at the Corn Exchange and there were forty ‘noddy bikes’ turned up from everywhere in the city. Apart from wishing to help colleagues, you never knew whether or not it would be ‘you’ that might need help next. In those days, morale was always very high and the camaraderie was great.

Unit Beat Policing, in about 1968, changed everything. Panda Cars were introduced instead of ‘noddy bikes’ and although the Control Room at Brotherton House was still maintained on VHF, all the Police Stations got UHF personal radios for every officer working and Radio Rooms were set up in each Police Station. Because of this, officers could only hear what was going on in their own division as each division had its own frequency, which changed everything, as they did not know what was happening in other parts of the city.

Regarding Salem Hall at Hunslet. In the 1960’s, in order to get promoted you, first, had to pass two examinations (they used to call them ‘classes’). The first one was an Educational Examination (I think - maths, english, geography, general knowledge, etc.). I think you had to gain about 60% to pass to sergeant and about 75% to pass to inspector (same paper in same examination). In order to qualify for promotion, it was also necessary to pass the Police Promotion Exams (law and procedure based), which were separate. You had to pass the sergeant’s exam before you could take the inspector’s exam. Even if you passed all of the exams, there was no guarantee of promotion. I took all of my exams at Salem Hall. I was lucky enough to pass the Educational Exam first time in 1967 with a pass of over 75% - so I qualified to inspector. As a detective constable, I passed the sergeants exam around 1969 and my inspectors exam around 1971 but I didn’t get promoted to sergeant until I left the Leeds Crime Squad in 1972.

I can remember some police officers (uniform and C.I.D.) who got promoted to sergeant, and were in that rank for many years, but could not get any further because they could not pass the Educational Examination, even though they had passed the Police Promotion Exam to inspector. It was funny because the Home Office abolished the Educational Exam around 1970 and, suddenly, some sergeants were promoted to inspector immediately and then rose through the ranks very rapidly and in a few years were superintendents and chief superintendents.

I can’t help you with the situation regarding the Crown Pub. I am sure that other members of Secret Leeds will be able to help. I rarely go into Leeds these days.

Finally, I always thought that it was very courageous of you to transfer to Northern Ireland. I seem to remember that you first went on secondment when the Home Office wanted staff there and then you returned to Leeds after your secondment was over, and then transferred to the R.U.C. permanently in 1979. As I have said, I thought that you were very brave bearing in mind the Birmingham Bombings and the Guildford Bombings in 1974 and then the Balcombe Street Siege in 1975. It must have been a big decision for you to make bearing in mind all the troubles in Northern Ireland at that time and for you to go there as an Englishman with a Leeds accent when you had a secure job as a detective in Leeds.

Ian
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Leodian
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Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Postby Leodian » Thu 01 Jan, 2015 12:27 am

That's fascinating reading Ian (I hope you don't mine me using Ian rather than your full member name). :)

I particularly like threads like this one for the information they bring up, such as Police Officer collar numbers that I would never have thought about.
A rainbow is a ribbon that Nature puts on when she washes her hair.
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tyke bhoy
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Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Postby tyke bhoy » Thu 01 Jan, 2015 1:21 pm

If you are talking about the Crown on Crown Point Road then the building is still there unless very recently demolished being one of the few buildings standing in what is substantially a brown field site. It is in a serious state of disrepair and at the age of 50 I have no memory of it ever been open.

From memory I have only ever been in Salem Hall once and that too was to take an exam although in my case the Civil Service entrance exam which I passed in what almost certainly was 1985. I passed the exam but didn't impress at interview.

Edit to add
2014 Streetview image of the Crown Hotel https://goo.gl/maps/PU6WB you can just see the "zig-zag" roof of the now open but then under construction new building for Leeds College of Building on the far side of the "brown field" on Black Bull Street at the Hunslet Low Road end
living a stones throw from the Leeds MDC border at Lofthousehttp://tykebhoy.wordpress.com/

tomq
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Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Postby tomq » Thu 01 Jan, 2015 3:31 pm

I think the landlord of the Crown at that time was Irish and called Killgallon but cannot remember his first name.
Tom
ivanloxley
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Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Postby ivanloxley » Thu 01 Jan, 2015 3:57 pm

Many thanks for your replies.
I was successful in the recruitment into WYP in 1999 and managed to parade in front of my grandfather (David Noble) at ST James's prior to his death.
When i joined i worked with Dave Smith (DC 23)he unfortunately died soon after completing 40 years in the Job he worked at Wortley with my Grandfather but did not know why he was called ' black sam' .My grandfather did however call all the men in our family Sam and all the male children boy - this was probobly from his service as a SGT Major with the coldstream guards. He retired in September 76 and got the QPM In 75 i am fortunate enough to have his medal, crowns and whistle.Ive worked across Bradford,Leeds and Wakefield.
My family had a strong connection in Wortley/Farnley - my mother an Identical twin ran the grocers on cow close road Wortley until 78 with her sister and mother Joan Noble. Joan who was formally a Wrigglesworth had a large family, her brother harold ran the nurseries off Butt Lane.
I still have family living in that area of Leeds and it is always interesting to hear from people who have first hand memories.
Regards
Ivan
j.c.d.
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Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Postby j.c.d. » Thu 01 Jan, 2015 4:35 pm

In the 70s I lived in Beeston and one of my neighbours ( a Bobby) had a desk job and had very grey hair, I can't for the life of me remember his name but some of the lads from Dewsbury Rd. nick used to call in the Conservative club just higher up the road for a couple. they used to joke about this guy that he was frightened to go out after dark. Some lads from there sometimes came over to the Beech pub on Tong Road for a couple of pints which caused a bit of consternation among the "Likely Lads" in the Tap room. Happy days.
bgams
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Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Postby bgams » Sun 04 Jan, 2015 9:18 pm

I,

Just tried to send a comprehensive reply to your most recent entry but for some reason it didn't go. I am a technophobe so do not think I was being rude not responding. When I think about it somebody somewhere may have been telling me what I already knew. Rambling will reply in full very soon as I find your material meat and drink to an old buffer like me. Question; Why were 'noddies' called 'noddies' and answer; I do think that the landlord at the Crown was called Pat Killgallon and I do believe he was one of the famous Killgallons.

wbg
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TABBYCAT
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Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Postby TABBYCAT » Mon 05 Jan, 2015 1:39 pm

bgams wrote:I,

Just tried to send a comprehensive reply to your most recent entry but for some reason it didn't go. I am a technophobe so do not think I was being rude not responding. When I think about it somebody somewhere may have been telling me what I already knew. Rambling will reply in full very soon as I find your material meat and drink to an old buffer like me. Question; Why were 'noddies' called 'noddies' and answer; I do think that the landlord at the Crown was called Pat Killgallon and I do believe he was one of the famous Killgallons.

wbg
(895)
Why were they called noddies?
A quote from Wikipedia might have the answer.

"The Velocette LE was a motorcycle made by Velocette from 1948 to 1970. The designation LE stood for "little engine".[1] Used by over fifty British Police forces, the police riders became known as "Noddies" because they were required to nod to senior officers, and the LE was nicknamed "the Noddy Bike".[2] Production ended in 1970 when the company ran into financial problems and went into voluntary liquidation.[1]..."
bgams
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Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Postby bgams » Mon 05 Jan, 2015 8:51 pm

TCT,

That reason was always my understanding. Also what added to that respectful 'nod' was the upright posture that the sit up and beg frame configuration demanded from the rider. A special gannex 'waterproof' was provided to riders of the Velocet which had all sorts of flaps and zips. The thing was as it got wetter and wetter it became heavier and heavier. The Velocet was water cooled and it spilled out oil very easily which made keeping one boot clean very difficult particularly as the gear change was operated by foot. The machine also had a very large battery pack at the back which was nearly like a pillion seat!

wbg
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