The Garden Gate Pub

Ale & Local History combined. Secret Leeds Heaven!
Si
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Postby Si » Sat 13 Apr, 2013 6:35 pm

Example of Mucha's work.
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Si
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Postby Si » Sat 13 Apr, 2013 6:41 pm

Some of this style of decoration can be seen in these tiles from the Garden Gate, although (as is typical of the Victorians) it is mixed with Classical "egg and dart" edge tiles. Pic from Leodis.    
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Jogon
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Postby Jogon » Sat 13 Apr, 2013 10:14 pm

Hullo Si
Bit of a fan of Klimt's Hygeiai.

Also Judith

links won't post
anon The mouse
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Postby anon The mouse » Sun 14 Apr, 2013 12:52 am

Uncle Mick, The maps are great, thanks! RE the 1850 Map Q1. What were the Vitriol works? And the furnaces behind them? I note the yards/streets are named after 'local' families and occupations. But comparing the 2 maps significant change appears to have occured in the twentyfive years 1850-1875.Wesley St 1850on which The Garen Gate stands becomes Whitfield St. (Q. Why when the Wesleyan Chapel still stands? ) Saville St 1850 becomes Savage St 1875 (both local family names.) but look further on the 1875, Latimer, Jerico, Society, and Humane Streets all smack of bible and social conscience. and now sunday schools fill the open spaces.

In this context, I can't help wondering if 'The Garden Gate' was not understood and implied really as 'The Garden (of Eden)Gate. After all for working men, I think the Pub represented a transitional place between work and home, a kind of escape and the garden gate of old country cottage type (not that old leeds houses had one! ) was traditionally a meeting place wasn't it? So I'm thinking of it in the same vein of Albion being used in the 1850 map (poetic meaning: Britain.) Also 'The Grove' (The Holbeck pub ravey davey mentions might be another example... it seems to me to hark to something natural and nostalgic -a kind of dream place away from hard grind,long hours and filth. I feel like Im answering my own questions here -but I couldnt have done it without your help. Si Thanks also for the Art N. style info. I like Both Mucha and Klimt's work and it seems fitting that this organic style found its way into the 'Garden' pub. My grandfather was born in the year of the pub being built- 1902. He worked the mines and when a teenager was briefly in WW1 -amazing to think that in his harsh and brief life (He died 1942) he spent some relaxing hours in this beautiful place and also met my gran there. I really can't wait to see it for real. Anon 'The mouse.'
[ub ]Anon THE mouse [ub]

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tilly
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Postby tilly » Sun 14 Apr, 2013 9:44 am

Hi anon the mouse re women and pubs when i was a kid they could go into a pub but only in the room called the snug not in the bar.I remember in Hunslet were i lived some used to take a jug to the outsales and get it filled with beer.I still remember seeing them walking up the street with a jug covered with a tea towel it was has though they thought no one would know what they had got.Dont get the idea lots of women did this it was only a few, how things have changed over the years.    
No matter were i end my days im an Hunslet lad with Hunslet ways.
anon The mouse
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Postby anon The mouse » Sun 14 Apr, 2013 3:10 pm

Hello Tilly,

Thanks! you certainly stimulated some conversation at this end!

So kids could also go into pubs!
Q.But could they go in unnaccompanied?
Q.And could they buy alcohol?

Q. What time period are you remembering here and what age
WERE you then?

Q.Regarding children and 'the snug' and (them) being in it. Would this be because you were with your mum and she was forbidden to use the bar?
Q.Or could you have been with dad or a male and he/they had to leave you in the snug in order to use the bar themselves? -A protective thing I guess as much worse behaviour and language would have been tolerated in the bar than in the snug.

Q. Was all this 'territorial designation' enforced by law or by the choice of landlord or landlady?
Q. What was a snug anyway?
Q. How did it get its name?

more questions than answers....!

I'm told that one would have to pay more for the same beer depending on whether you used the bar or lounge and/or snug. And that the extra payment was for 'the luxury' and this was not signed- it was implicit- people expected to pay more.

Also that some rooms in some corridor pubs had bell service only and the bar had hatches (drop down shelves, forming barrier)onto the corridor to allow sales to the public

or hatches elsewhere into areas of the pub allowing the landlord visual access and protective supervision.

Q. Was 'Out'sales' same as 'off-sales' same as 'off-licence' Are they all types of the same thing?

Q. Was the clandestine and hiding behaviour of the old woman covering jug with tea towel - just to protect the beer from flies etc,
and was it real or imagined behaviour?

I mean, What was she hiding other than a jug of beer?

And anyway, Who was the beer for? Herself or her husband or father perhaps?

If only a few women did this it suggests to me that there was 'stigma' attached to it.

Why?

and was it attached to the beer or to the woman?

To say nothing of the fact that the maps 1850, and 1875 above show The Garden Gate as being situated smack opposite The Wesleyan Chapel and with the temperance movement and all that!

How did this pub survive and thrive like that?
--Perhaps the dream of the garden (of Eden) Gate was always bigger than the reality of non-conformist religion and slog ...as in hard manual work, grime and long hours.

After all the place is a watering hole of a different kind!

Thankyou for your answers, I feel I am getting to know the place even before I visit it because of them.

Anon 'The Mouse'
[ub ]Anon THE mouse [ub]
raveydavey
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Postby raveydavey » Sun 14 Apr, 2013 4:27 pm

anon The mouse wrote:


I'm told that one would have to pay more for the same beer depending on whether you used the bar or lounge and/or snug. And that the extra payment was for 'the luxury' and this was not signed- it was implicit- people expected to pay more.

Q. Was 'Out'sales' same as 'off-sales' same as 'off-licence' Are they all types of the same thing?



Yes, even in the mid/late 80's when I started going to pubs, many had a tap room (or snug) and a lounge bar and the beer was a couple of pence a pint cheaper in the tap room. It's just how it was.

A tap room was traditionally furnished in a much more basic way, often with bare stone flags on the floor, whilst the lounge was a more salubrious place to enjoy a pint, with carpets and better furnishings.
The tap room would typically be a place for the working man, often in overalls, to drink - some were men only even recently either openly, or implied.

This split of rooms has been lost from many pubs now, as there is a tendency to open plan during refurbishments.


Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act – George Orwell
anon The mouse
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Postby anon The mouse » Sun 14 Apr, 2013 5:03 pm

Now I'm completely confused!!!!

I was told elsewhere 'The snug' was the place of women and children and the better furnished place and more expensive drinks.

Now ravey davey equates it with the bar and flag stone floors and hard wood chairs as opposed to soft furnishings and cheaper drinks...

Could this reflect changes over time and
Both be true depending on the time period being talked about?

Or, if not this then what?
Anon the mouse.
[ub ]Anon THE mouse [ub]

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tilly
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Postby tilly » Sun 14 Apr, 2013 8:31 pm

Hi anon the mouse What I said was women were allowed in the snug no children were allowed in pubs The time I am talking about would be the nineteen fiftys hope this clears it up for you.Children could go into the out sales if the pub had one but only to buy things like crisps nuts pop no beer or spirits, not that we had a lot of money to do so.To give you an idea what things were like something that sticks in my mind was when my best friends big brother bought my friend and me fish and chips.He was working at the time we were both about fourteen I could not get over the idea that someone could afford to do this, fish and chips would have been nine pence old money at the time its funny what stays in your mind for the rest of your life sorry to rabbit on.
No matter were i end my days im an Hunslet lad with Hunslet ways.
Tasa
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Postby Tasa » Sun 14 Apr, 2013 8:31 pm

tilly wrote:
Hi anon the mouse re women and pubs when i was a kid they could go into a pub but only in the room called the snug not in the bar.I remember in Hunslet were i lived some used to take a jug to the outsales and get it filled with beer.I still remember seeing them walking up the street with a jug coverd with a tea towel it was has though they thought no one would know what they had got.Dont get the idea lots of women did this it was only a few, how things have changed over the years.


Tilly, my mother was brought up in Bradford in the early 1920s and remembered her mother going to the local pub with a jug to get beer. As my mother grew older, she was sent to get the beer (at the age of about 9!). She never drank draught beer if my memory is correct (but occasionally Mackeson's Stout), so these errands obviously didn't corrupt her in spite of her tender age!

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