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The Parksider
Posts: 1547
Joined: Sat 10 Nov, 2007 3:55 am

Postby The Parksider » Sun 28 Sep, 2014 11:31 pm

grumpytramp wrote:


Seatearth fireclay in the West Yorkshire Coalfield were generally quite thin but had "refactory qualities" i.e. they were able to resist high temperatures due to their specific chemical composition. So in East Leeds were fireclays were won as by product of coal mining or sometimes were coal was a bi-product of fireclay mining the fireclay was used to produce high value products such as firebricks for hearths/furnaces/kilns, flue pipes, chimney pots, drainage pipes etc rather than low value common building bricks.

As the common building brick could be made using locally won mudstsone and shales which were/are in huge abundance through out the city bricks were manufactured where ever a suitable deposit of mudstone was found in close proximity to development!

I would hazard that in the huge excavations in Burmatofts particularly both common mudstone for building bricks and fireclay for refractory purposes must have been won (along with a bit of coal for the kilns!)    


many thanks for your patience and reply. If I am confusing the reddish shales and mudstones? as fireclay when in fact fireclay was yellowy/grey then it would seem to explain most things.

When you refer to Fireclay "mining" that seems at odds with the extraction of fireclay via "claypits" a straight excavation?? Maybe that is mining too only not via a shaft??

If the ground at Pool and Horsforth contained pink coloured shale and mudstone then indeed that is why the BWS & HORSFORTH bricks are that colour. In the Hawksworth and pool bank quarries I see no such material either as spoil or in the strata exposed by the digging down. Do shale & Mudstone deposits lie as a "layer" or in singular mass to be dug out from a resultant pit than is then exhausted and filled back in??

Bear with me!!


grumpytramp
Posts: 331
Joined: Mon 24 Sep, 2007 6:28 pm

Postby grumpytramp » Mon 06 Oct, 2014 12:56 am

The Parksider wrote:
I have a nice piece of pinky red WYC "shale"?? I thought was fireclay, and so if fireclays are buff it's a simple mistake and a much appreciated correction.


I think it is more likely that the pink-red shale you found at West Yorkshire Colliery is burnt shale from the former pit heaps.

Anyone with a long enough memory brought up in an old mining district might recall spoil heaps that were on fire. Until collieries began washing coal to maximise the recovery of fine coal, most coal if processed, was processed by dry screening and the vast majority of fine coal was lost and sent to the spoil heap with the rest of the discard where it was tipped. Some coals will oxidise when in contact with air, generating heat which further encourages oxidisation until there is sufficient heat for spontaneous combustion of the coal content.

If the conditions were suitable substantial areas of spoil tips can be burnt, leaving a distinctive pink red burnt shale, known up here in Scotland as Red Blaes. Once cooled it is a fantastic fill material so often burnt shale tips were used for embankment fill. To illustrate please see this photos taken at a land reclamation project in West Lothian were Riddochhill Colliery tip had been burning for decades:

https://flic.kr/p/52KoU8

https://flic.kr/p/52PBid
grumpytramp
Posts: 331
Joined: Mon 24 Sep, 2007 6:28 pm

Postby grumpytramp » Mon 06 Oct, 2014 1:18 am

The Parksider wrote:
When you refer to Fireclay "mining" that seems at odds with the extraction of fireclay via "claypits" a straight excavation?? Maybe that is mining too only not via a shaft??


Fireclay in West Yorkshire was quarried in brick pits but was also worked underground along similar methods as small collieries. The underground workings often worked both Fireclay and Coal, so its not often clear which mineral was the primary mineral.

To illustrate the wide variety of extraction techniques, below is a summary of the Leeds Fireclay Company operations in Leeds around 1920

HAREHILLS, Potternewton [Mine 255' shaft] working Better Bed Coal & Fireclay [used for refractory, sanitary and glazed goods]
GIPTON No.2, Potternewton [Drift mine] working Beeston Coal and underclay [used for acid resisting goods]
ELLAND ROAD, Hunslet [Quarry] working Bastard Fireclay [used for sanitary pipes and glazed goods]
CARIDIGAN, Beeston [Mine 164' shaft] working Better Bed & Fireclay [used for refractory, sanitary and glazed goods]
CORONATION, Holbeck [Mine 78' shaft] working Better Bed & Fireclay [used for refractory, sanitary and glazed goods]
GREENSIDE, Pudsey [Drift mine] working Better Bed & Fireclay [used for refractory, sanitary and glazed goods]
STANNINGLEY, Farsley [Quarry] working the Stanningley Rock [used for refractory goods]


The Parksider wrote:


If the ground at Pool and Horsforth contained pink coloured shale and mudstone then indeed that is why the BWS & HORSFORTH bricks are that colour. In the Hawksworth and pool bank quarries I see no such material either as spoil or in the strata exposed by the digging down. Do shale & Mudstone deposits lie as a "layer" or in singular mass to be dug out from a resultant pit than is then exhausted and filled back in??


The mudstones/shales lay in beds much like a coal seam, and in the Coal Measures are generally relatively thick compared with the coal seams. They are generally grey in colour but once heated in a brick kiln will generally gain their distinctive orange colour.
The Parksider
Posts: 1547
Joined: Sat 10 Nov, 2007 3:55 am

Postby The Parksider » Mon 06 Oct, 2014 10:30 am

grumpytramp wrote:


I think it is more likely that the pink-red shale you found at West Yorkshire Colliery is burnt shale from the former pit heaps.

Anyone with a long enough memory brought up in an old mining district might recall spoil heaps that were on fire. Until collieries began washing coal to maximise the recovery of fine coal, most coal if processed, was processed by dry screening and the vast majority of fine coal was lost and sent to the spoil heap with the rest of the discard where it was tipped. Some coals will oxidise when in contact with air, generating heat which further encourages oxidisation until there is sufficient heat for spontaneous combustion of the coal content.

If the conditions were suitable substantial areas of spoil tips can be burnt, leaving a distinctive pink red burnt shale, known up here in Scotland as Red Blaes. Once cooled it is a fantastic fill material so often burnt shale tips were used for embankment fill. To illustrate please see this photos taken at a land reclamation project in West Lothian were Riddochhill Colliery tip had been burning for decades:

https://flic.kr/p/52KoU8

https://flic.kr/p/52PBid


Just a quick reply for starters and to say a big thank you....

My dad did say something about fires on the Middleton tips and coal pickers in days of depression putting themselves at risk, exactly how I cannot recall, do any local history people have anything? As an aside I do recall the kid who died when he went down an inspection shaft 1970's?

The Miggy tips certainly had several shades and colours about them looking back - this is fascinating stuff GT. My interest in things under the ground was limited to the pretty things lead mining throws up rather than boring rocks (made interesting by you) so it's all new to me.

The big thing for me is how the firing process in the kiln turns grey to orange and that explains such a lot........
    

The Parksider
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Joined: Sat 10 Nov, 2007 3:55 am

Postby The Parksider » Mon 06 Oct, 2014 10:36 am

grumpytramp wrote:


Fireclay in West Yorkshire was quarried in brick pits but was also worked underground along similar methods as small collieries. The underground workings often worked both Fireclay and Coal, so its not often clear which mineral was the primary mineral.

The mudstones/shales lay in beds much like a coal seam, and in the Coal Measures are generally relatively thick compared with the coal seams. They are generally grey in colour but once heated in a brick kiln will generally gain their distinctive orange colour.



To complete how would ironstone be mined GT?

From a tip at the old Barnbow Colliery I picked out an Ironstone nodule (I think - heavy round smoothish nodule of grey interior reddish exterior with exterior layers flaking off?)

The "Ironhills" of seacroft were maybe dedicated Ironstone mines - or quarries, or pits?

Again thank you for your indulgence......
JenA
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed 08 Oct, 2014 11:05 am

Postby JenA » Wed 08 Oct, 2014 4:53 pm

Hi Everyone,
I'm new to the forum and this thread and have a question for the Leeds Brick Collectors Club - if you guys don't mind?
I've been looking at a brick and terracotta building in Armley and found a brick on the parapet with the maker's mark "J.M & S". I am reliably informed that this is the mark of the firm John Matthew & Son (1889-1920) that later became A N Braithwaite & Co (1923-1929) and that they were on Ingram Road and Shafton Lane in Holbeck.
What I would dearly love to know is if their fireclay works manufactured decorative terracotta building elements as well as bricks!
Any thoughts? Anyone know anything more about them?
Thanks in advance!
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Dalehelms
Posts: 319
Joined: Sat 10 Mar, 2007 5:00 pm

Postby Dalehelms » Wed 08 Oct, 2014 5:47 pm

Welcome to Secret Leeds, JenA. I hope that you get answers to your query.
The Parksider
Posts: 1547
Joined: Sat 10 Nov, 2007 3:55 am

Postby The Parksider » Wed 08 Oct, 2014 10:01 pm

JenA wrote:
Hi Everyone,
I'm new to the forum and this thread and have a question for the Leeds Brick Collectors Club - if you guys don't mind?
I've been looking at a brick and terracotta building in Armley and found a brick on the parapet with the maker's mark "J.M & S". I am reliably informed that this is the mark of the firm John Matthew & Son (1889-1920) that later became A N Braithwaite & Co (1923-1929) and that they were on Ingram Road and Shafton Lane in Holbeck.
What I would dearly love to know is if their fireclay works manufactured decorative terracotta building elements as well as bricks!
Any thoughts? Anyone know anything more about them?
Thanks in advance!


Jenna,

Just go back to page 1. and look up the brilliant Chemimike's listings of old time brick suppliers.

You will find J M & S listed and that they did "facing bricks" is proof that they did indeed manufacture decorative brick.

I toddle around various old (posh) bits of Leeds and it seems once upon a time fancy brickwork was the thing!!

You can't beat decorative carved stone, but for a period in Leeds some wonderful decorative brick was manufactured and incorporated into some of the posher brick built homes and institutions.

Maybe time for Leo to get round town and woodhouse to picture a few for us??



The Parksider
Posts: 1547
Joined: Sat 10 Nov, 2007 3:55 am

Postby The Parksider » Wed 08 Oct, 2014 10:23 pm

Dalehelms wrote:
Welcome to Secret Leeds, JenA. I hope that you get answers to your query.


http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html

1921 - 2,500/1 scale and the "Central works" that produced those bricks will be shown in all their glory....
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chemimike
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Joined: Fri 14 Mar, 2008 7:23 pm
Location: Reading

Postby chemimike » Thu 09 Oct, 2014 2:50 am

Advert from 1916 directory
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