Leeds born Somme hero's Victoria Cross and his other medals up for auction.

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blackprince
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Re: Leeds born Somme hero's Victoria Cross and his other medals up for auction.

Postby blackprince » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 12:14 pm

Leo,
Private Kitchen was in the age group that saw service in both world wars. You said he didn't survive WW2 so I searched the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website.
There was only one result for
KITCHEN, ALBERT ERNEST
Rank:
Warrant Officer Class III
Trade:
P.S.M. (Platoon Sergeant Major)
Service No:
3529209
Date of Death:
10/03/1940
Regiment/Service:
Manchester Regiment
 
7th Bn.
Grave Reference:
Sec. I. Church. Joint grave 510. Screen Wall Pnl 1
Cemetery:
MANCHESTER (PHILIPS PARK) CEMETERY

I am not currently subscribed to other databases which could confirm it is him
BP
It used to be said that the statue of the Black Prince had been placed in City Square , near the station, pointing South to tell all the southerners who've just got off the train to b****r off back down south!
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Leodian
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Re: Leeds born Somme hero's Victoria Cross and his other medals up for auction.

Postby Leodian » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 2:23 pm

Thanks all for your help which is greatly appreciated :).

The record you have reproduced buffaloskinner is very clear so I will not want a full sized copy of that Award sheet, but thank you very much for asking.

That is was possible that Private Kitchen could have fought in both wars never crossed my mind, so thanks blackprince for your also valuable input. I have a small document with the medals/stars I have in which it mentions "Awards granted for service in the war of 1939-45. The Council share your sorrow that Pte. A. Kitchen in respect of whose service these Awards are granted did not live to receive them". The document states that 6 stars, medal clasps or emblems were awarded. Assuming all 6 were given to me then they will be 6 of the 9 WW2 medal/stars that I have, but as there are no names on them I don't know which are for Private Kitchen.

I knew little of the Kitchen family but for various reasons that I won't say here it would be wrong of me to try to find information about the family. Assumptions that I had made could also be wrong. I had for example assumed that the Private Kitchen who did not survive WW2 would be the son of the Private Kitchen who survived WW1 but that assumption may be wrong.

Edit Feb12 2017 about 19:06. I had originally stated I had 11 WW2 medal/stars but I only have 9 so I have now corrected that error.
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buffaloskinner
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Re: Leeds born Somme hero's Victoria Cross and his other medals up for auction.

Postby buffaloskinner » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 2:29 pm

Leo
The name info that Blackprince has posted is incorrect, as the initial is A and not AE.

The medals you received from the lady were in fact from her son Albert (parents were Grace Mabel and Albert Kitchen of Leeds) in WW2, and you should have the service number 14202619 on the side as the documents below.
Attachments
Albert Kitchen 14202619 WW2.JPG
Albert Kitchen 14202619 WW2.JPG (34.89 KiB) Viewed 280 times
Albert Kitchen (son) Certificate.jpg
Albert Kitchen (son) Certificate.jpg (204.82 KiB) Viewed 280 times
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Re: Leeds born Somme hero's Victoria Cross and his other medals up for auction.

Postby buffaloskinner » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 2:31 pm

Leo
Documents for Arthur Fredrick Green Royal Naval Reserve (RNR), drowned / died 4 Feb 1916 in a collision off Sheerness on the HM Trawler King Emperor.

I believe that the initials ENGMN refer to Engineering Mechanic
He was from Hull married to Alice Green and the son of James Arthur and Francis Green
Attachments
Arthur Fredrick Green RNR 1916.JPG
Arthur Fredrick Green RNR 1916.JPG (53.53 KiB) Viewed 280 times
Arthur Fredrick Green death record 1916 - cropped.jpg
Arthur Fredrick Green death record 1916 - cropped.jpg (472.92 KiB) Viewed 280 times
Arthur Fredrick Green Commonwealth War Grave record - cropped.jpg
Arthur Fredrick Green Commonwealth War Grave record - cropped.jpg (264.08 KiB) Viewed 280 times
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Leodian
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Re: Leeds born Somme hero's Victoria Cross and his other medals up for auction.

Postby Leodian » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 2:34 pm

Wow buffaloskinner you were either writing your post as I was doing mine or you are a speedy typist ;).

Thanks for that information. :)

And also for that sad information you've added about Arthur Green.
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blackprince
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Re: Leeds born Somme hero's Victoria Cross and his other medals up for auction.

Postby blackprince » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 4:59 pm

Hi Leo,
Do you think the service number for Private J. Smith could be 5928 .
If so these details from CWGC might be your man.

JOHN THOMAS SMITH

Rank:
Private
Service No:
5928
Date of Death:
04/02/1916
Age:
43
Regiment/Service:
West Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of Wales's Own)

3rd Bn.
Grave Reference:
Screen Wall. W. 431.
Cemetery:
LEEDS (LAWNSWOOD) CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of the late John and Ellen Smith (nee Herdman); husband of Amy Annie Smith, of 12, Jackman Yard, Institution St., Woodhouse, Leeds

There is one bit of further information giving cause of death - gas.

Maybe BS can doublecheck this?

This is of interest to me because my grandfather served in the same regiment from 1914 - 1919 and his lungs were affected by chlorine gas to an extent.

BP
It used to be said that the statue of the Black Prince had been placed in City Square , near the station, pointing South to tell all the southerners who've just got off the train to b****r off back down south!
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buffaloskinner
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Re: Leeds born Somme hero's Victoria Cross and his other medals up for auction.

Postby buffaloskinner » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 5:26 pm

Pte J Smith 828 was in the West Yorkshire Regiment, 15th (Service) Battalion (1st Leeds)

I can confirm his number was 828 as below, however I do not have access to this site and his record is not shown on Ancestry. Will however keep searching.

There are two J Smiths on the National Roll, he could be one of those if he was from Leeds which is more than likely with being in the West Yorkshire Regiment

:x
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J Smith 828 WYR.JPG
J Smith 828 WYR.JPG (24.88 KiB) Viewed 262 times
National Roll J Smith - crop.jpg
National Roll J Smith - crop.jpg (334.13 KiB) Viewed 262 times
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Leodian
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Re: Leeds born Somme hero's Victoria Cross and his other medals up for auction.

Postby Leodian » Sun 12 Feb, 2017 8:20 pm

Thanks again all for your help :).

You stated in an earlier post buffaloskinner "The medals you received from the lady were in fact from her son Albert (parents were Grace Mabel and Albert Kitchen of Leeds) in WW2, and you should have the service number 14202619 on the side". Among the 9 WW2 medals/stars that I have there is a 'Defence Medal' and the 'War Medal 1939-1945' both of which I assume were part of the total of possibly up to 6 medals/stars awarded to Private A(lbert) Kitchen who did not survive the war. The 2 medals though have no name nor number on their edge.

For interest the 9 WW2 awards I have comprise: Defence Medal, War Medal 1939-1945, The 1939-1945 Star, The Atlantic Star, The Africa Star, The Italy Star, The France and Germany Star, The Pacific Star, The Burma Star. I don't know though which of them may be all or part of the 6 awarded to Private Kitchen, but as he fought in the Western Europe Campaign 1944/45 then the Pacific Star and Burma Star would seem not to be his. Even if I do have all 6 awarded to him that still means there is 1 that was not his.
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blackprince
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Re: Leeds born Somme hero's Victoria Cross and his other medals up for auction.

Postby blackprince » Mon 13 Feb, 2017 10:14 am

Well done buffalo skinner for accurately identifying these medal holders. My own attempts turned out to be red herrings.
Leo your mention of the various WW2 stars led me to look these up and I found this is a useful reference
http://www.rogersstudy.co.uk/medals/ww2_stars/stars.html
As a medal collector you probably don't need this reference but for anyone else coming across these posts it may be useful
It does clarify a couple of points:
The defence medal and war medal are unnamed.
It also says that the number of stars issued to an individual was normally
limited to 5.
BP
It used to be said that the statue of the Black Prince had been placed in City Square , near the station, pointing South to tell all the southerners who've just got off the train to b****r off back down south!
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buffaloskinner
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Re: Leeds born Somme hero's Victoria Cross and his other medals up for auction.

Postby buffaloskinner » Mon 13 Feb, 2017 3:13 pm

Leo
Albert Kitchen jr would have definitely had the War Medal 1939-1945 and the 1939-1945 Star, he would not have had the Atlantic Star or the Pacific and Burma stars.
That then leaves the Africa, Italy and the France and Germany Stars.
Certain Battalions of the Durham Light Infantry did fight in all those Theatres of War but whether Albert was in all those places it is hard to determine without seeing his service record.

As a point of interest it seems that only a small amount of WW2 medals were stamped up, this was due the British Government realising how much it was going to cost.
All Victoria Crosses and Military Medals were engraved, other medals would have a chit with them showing the soldiers information on which they could take to a jewellers or Boots the Chemist for engraving if they so wished. I would not at all be surprised if many soldiers just threw them away in disgust.

Here is a link to the Durham Light Infantry website, it has a lot of valuable information on it

http://durhamlightinfantry.webs.com/

and here is the Governments webpage for Campaign Medal

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/medals-camp ... ligibility

:arrow:
Attachments
A Kitchen gravestone.jpg
A Kitchen gravestone.jpg (76.86 KiB) Viewed 195 times
Last edited by 1 on buffaloskinner, edited 0 times in total.
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