Coal Mining in East Leeds

Off-topic discussions, musings and chat
The Parksider
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Postby The Parksider » Thu 01 Jan, 2009 4:06 pm

chameleon wrote:


you can't defeat nature.



But you can culvert it!

I'll let you know what my ramble finds in my future ramblings.
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chameleon
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Postby chameleon » Thu 01 Jan, 2009 4:12 pm

The Parksider wrote:
chameleon wrote:


you can't defeat nature.



But you can culvert it!

I'll let you know what my ramble finds in my future ramblings.


(They had - but the rate of arival was greater than could be coped with, thus the excess did what it always would have done!)

In very approx. terms, I think the mill and ponds lie in the area of the small and larger boxes respectively:
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grumpytramp
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Postby grumpytramp » Thu 01 Jan, 2009 11:44 pm

Chameleon/Parksider

I am inclined to agree with the pair of you that the water led to the mill must have came from a feeder beck to Wyke Beck running along the field boundaries running east to west.

I think an important clue resides in the relative levels of the Mill Ponds. Obviously the 1:10,560 plans on Old Maps do not give precise levels but there is a bench mark level of (I think) 202 feet shown adjacent to Bower Cottage to the immediate south of the Mill Ponds. Even allowing for any difference in level between the bench mark and the invert level of the feed to the pond, it would be reasonable to expect if the water was collected from Wyke Beck then it must have been from a location at or about the 200 foot contour to gravitate to the Mill.

Looking at the 1:10,560 plans it is clear that at this time when the beck followed its natural course it was meandering suggesting a very shallow gradient and immediately below the mill being at a level of approximately 150'. Tracing the beck up it's course to my eyes, it doesn't cross the 200' contour to somewhere in the vicinity of Dibb Lane.

It seems unlikely that a Mill Lade would have been constructed over such a distance? .......... however I do notice on the 1909 OS 1:10,560 a wier where Dib Lane meets the Wkye Beck; what was its purpose?

I have also thought a wee bit about the local river here, the Devon, which I know intimately from my obcession with brown trout fishing. There were relatively few mills on the main course of the river where they relied exclusively on weirs to provide sufficient head of water to drive the waterwheels (for example corn and paper mills at Crook of Devon). The majority of the mills appear to have been driven by feeder burns even when situated next to the river (see by way of example http://flickr.com/photos/ghiribizzo/2337901221/sizes/o/ the feeder burn is the foreground, the main river in the background and the bronze horse is an example of poor taste by the owner!). It makes me think the presence of the ponds provided the mill a means of storing water for dry periods?





    
grumpytramp
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Postby grumpytramp » Fri 02 Jan, 2009 12:18 am

On the subject of the Mill itself you might be interested in a paper published by the Newcomen Society:

Old Water-wheel at Seacroft, Leeds    
E. KILBURN Scott A.M.Inst.C.E., M.I.E.E., Member
Volume: 19 [1938] Pages: 101-108

Available online for £10 [ http://www.pubs-newcomen.com/cgi-bin/somsid.cgi?type=pdf&page=19p101&code=tmfakruc&session=850010A&record=341&subpage=0&hl=seacroft ] but probably easily hunted down in Leeds University Library!

It does state on the preview page:

Quote:
Power for the furnace bellows, helve-hammer and for a flour mill was obtained from the water of Wyke Beck and there was a large pond (finally filled in 1938 ) near the site of the foundary. The flour mill was a little further downstream and water passed to it through a covered-in channel. At its end a short leet of boards delivered water into the buckets of a water wheel that had been a landmark for a century and a half


Looking through the various links I had not appreciated that the great John Smeaton had designed the original water wheel for the 'Seacroft blast furnace engine" in 1779

http://www.leodis.net/display.aspx?resourceIdentifier=20031010_30506533
http://www.leodis.net/display.aspx?resourceIdentifier=20031010_41975039
http://www.leodis.net/display.aspx?resourceIdentifier=20031010_7203310
http://www.leodis.net/display.aspx?resourceIdentifier=20031010_87194461
http://www.leodis.net/display.aspx?resourceIdentifier=20031010_92307681
http://www.leodis.net/display.aspx?resourceIdentifier=20031010_95718021

    

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chameleon
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Postby chameleon » Fri 02 Jan, 2009 11:26 am

Thanks for that grumpytramp - not least, it's easy to get lost in one's own rambling - nice to know others can translate them as they were intended.

You seem to appreciate our dilema in terms of the source of the feeder, references are made to this being Wyke Beck but that doesn't seem to tie-in with what can be seen. I'm now as convinced as I am likely to be I think, the water came from elsewhere. If the source was Wyke Beck, then I feel it must have originated from much further upstream.

The chanel from Dibb Lane accross fearnville has been re-engineered several times over the years to rationalise its course but the topography is esentially level as you suggest but interestingly the level the Foundry Lane and South Parkway juncture is some feet below the general lay of the land towards the Mill site.

Yes, it was a local affair with Smeaton's Wheel, not much can be gleaned from the offerings on Leodis, these are understandably more centred upon the wheel itself but the impression of the one picture of the more general site does suggest an incline - though in which direction, you can not tell!
    
LS1
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Postby LS1 » Fri 02 Jan, 2009 11:04 pm

Hi, just to put my 2 penneth worth in, you might have tried this but I find it works pretty well to find where old places were on a modern map.

Go to the www.old-maps.co.uk site, find what it is you want and the go to www.streetmap.co.uk copy in the co-ordiantes and it will find the exact spot that you have on the old map, in the new map.

Tried it with a number of things that I know where they are and it came out pretty much exact.

Good luck!
LS1
PostsCOLON 2155
JoinedCOLON Mon 23 Jul, 2007 8:30 am

Postby LS1 » Fri 02 Jan, 2009 11:04 pm

Hi, just to put my 2 penneth worth in, you might have tried this but I find it works pretty well to find where old places were on a modern map.

Go to the www.old-maps.co.uk site, find what it is you want and the go to www.streetmap.co.uk copy in the co-ordiantes and it will find the exact spot that you have on the old map, in the new map.

Tried it with a number of things that I know where they are and it came out pretty much exact.

Good luck!
The Parksider
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JoinedCOLON Sat 10 Nov, 2007 3:55 am

Postby The Parksider » Fri 02 Jan, 2009 11:26 pm

chameleon wrote:


You seem to appreciate our dilema in terms of the source of the feeder, references are made to this being Wyke Beck but that doesn't seem to tie-in with what can be seen.



So today I had a field trip.

At the junction of Ramshead approach and Ramshead drive you can see the watershed and head of two valleys. To the right bailey's rein and to the left....well read on.

Our proposition was there was a stream that ran from Ramshead through Foxwood that may have fed Foundry Mill.

There is. The Ramshead watershed and Baileys lane where the stream crossed in the 1800's is today split by north Parkway, but in line and futher down (kentmere rise) the stream can be found across kentmere avenue from the rise.

Unlike the upper reaches of Bailey's Rein and the valley down Moresdale lane it flows with water and was probably the strongest tributary to wyke beck.

There is about 80 meters of it out and back into culverts. The street alongside is is called Rosgill. I think we have Ross Gill.

Tracing it down through Foxwood there is a large inspection chamber on the foxwood playing field and the culvert appears at Wyke beck opposite Arthur's rein culvert.

But our proposition was that a watercourse was cut around the hillside to take Ross Gill water onto the Foundry Mill Ponds.

I do not think it was "exactly".

Looking at the terrain and levels I feel that the watercourse followed the contour around the hillside and just about made the back of Foundry Mill.

Superimposing the 1800's maps with the line of the diverted Ross Gill across to the Mill, and looking at the lie of the land it just about makes it to the mill but not to the ponds.

I think if you look at the map the launder/leat enters the back of the mill. It has a T junction where either pond water comes from one side or Ross Gill water comes from the other. But I do not think Ross Gill fed the ponds.

Indeed the ponds are marked as "Old Mill Ponds".

There is another valley in the sequence (Roundhay Grange, Bailey's Rein, Ross Gill then) Moresdale lane.

A watershed and mini valley runs from paralell York Road and turns down Moresdale lane and may have had a stream in it that fed the ponds. However I think it was probably a weak one. At the base of this valley there are several culverts into Wyke beck confirming a flow of water acordingly.

So many Tributaries to the Wyke beck?? Well the area I covered was called "Brook" Lands!!

When Smeaton got involved with the Mill I suspect he demanded a better rate of water feed and of course he would have no problem engineering the feed from Ross Gill.

Perhaps it is our best bet.........

The Parksider
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JoinedCOLON Sat 10 Nov, 2007 3:55 am

Postby The Parksider » Fri 02 Jan, 2009 11:26 pm

chameleon wrote:


You seem to appreciate our dilema in terms of the source of the feeder, references are made to this being Wyke Beck but that doesn't seem to tie-in with what can be seen.



So today I had a field trip.

At the junction of Ramshead approach and Ramshead drive you can see the watershed and head of two valleys. To the right bailey's rein and to the left....well read on.

Our proposition was there was a stream that ran from Ramshead through Foxwood that may have fed Foundry Mill.

There is. The Ramshead watershed and Baileys lane where the stream crossed in the 1800's is today split by north Parkway, but in line and futher down (kentmere rise) the stream can be found across kentmere avenue from the rise.

Unlike the upper reaches of Bailey's Rein and the valley down Moresdale lane it flows with water and was probably the strongest tributary to wyke beck.

There is about 80 meters of it out and back into culverts. The street alongside is is called Rosgill. I think we have Ross Gill.

Tracing it down through Foxwood there is a large inspection chamber on the foxwood playing field and the culvert appears at Wyke beck opposite Arthur's rein culvert.

But our proposition was that a watercourse was cut around the hillside to take Ross Gill water onto the Foundry Mill Ponds.

I do not think it was "exactly".

Looking at the terrain and levels I feel that the watercourse followed the contour around the hillside and just about made the back of Foundry Mill.

Superimposing the 1800's maps with the line of the diverted Ross Gill across to the Mill, and looking at the lie of the land it just about makes it to the mill but not to the ponds.

I think if you look at the map the launder/leat enters the back of the mill. It has a T junction where either pond water comes from one side or Ross Gill water comes from the other. But I do not think Ross Gill fed the ponds.

Indeed the ponds are marked as "Old Mill Ponds".

There is another valley in the sequence (Roundhay Grange, Bailey's Rein, Ross Gill then) Moresdale lane.

A watershed and mini valley runs from paralell York Road and turns down Moresdale lane and may have had a stream in it that fed the ponds. However I think it was probably a weak one. At the base of this valley there are several culverts into Wyke beck confirming a flow of water acordingly.

So many Tributaries to the Wyke beck?? Well the area I covered was called "Brook" Lands!!

When Smeaton got involved with the Mill I suspect he demanded a better rate of water feed and of course he would have no problem engineering the feed from Ross Gill.

Perhaps it is our best bet.........
The Parksider
PostsCOLON 1546
JoinedCOLON Sat 10 Nov, 2007 3:55 am

Postby The Parksider » Fri 02 Jan, 2009 11:27 pm

chameleon wrote:


You seem to appreciate our dilema in terms of the source of the feeder, references are made to this being Wyke Beck but that doesn't seem to tie-in with what can be seen.



So today I had a field trip.

At the junction of Ramshead approach and Ramshead drive you can see the watershed and head of two valleys. To the right bailey's rein and to the left....well read on.

Our proposition was there was a stream that ran from Ramshead through Foxwood that may have fed Foundry Mill.

There is. The Ramshead watershed and Baileys lane where the stream crossed in the 1800's is today split by north Parkway, but in line and futher down (kentmere rise) the stream can be found across kentmere avenue from the rise.

Unlike the upper reaches of Bailey's Rein and the valley down Moresdale lane it flows with water and was probably the strongest tributary to wyke beck.

There is about 80 meters of it out and back into culverts. The street alongside is is called Rosgill. I think we have Ross Gill.

Tracing it down through Foxwood there is a large inspection chamber on the foxwood playing field and the culvert appears at Wyke beck opposite Arthur's rein culvert.

But our proposition was that a watercourse was cut around the hillside to take Ross Gill water onto the Foundry Mill Ponds.

I do not think it was "exactly".

Looking at the terrain and levels I feel that the watercourse followed the contour around the hillside and just about made the back of Foundry Mill.

Superimposing the 1800's maps with the line of the diverted Ross Gill across to the Mill, and looking at the lie of the land it just about makes it to the mill but not to the ponds.

I think if you look at the map the launder/leat enters the back of the mill. It has a T junction where either pond water comes from one side or Ross Gill water comes from the other. But I do not think Ross Gill fed the ponds.

Indeed the ponds are marked as "Old Mill Ponds".


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