Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

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jma
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JoinedCOLON Fri 05 Aug, 2016 3:38 pm

Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Postby jma » Wed 07 Sep, 2016 10:06 pm

Unless I've confused him with someone else, I think that Inspector Camidge was the original inspector i/c the Juvenile Bureau when it was formed in November 1971 (I got that date but not his name from the history book.)

That was significant for me because I had investigated a case of robbery (which in legal terms means theft accompanied or preceded by threats or violence) and also GBH by a gang of juveniles. The newly-established Juvenile Bureau decided on cautions, which were much rarer in those far-off days, although the creation of that department showed which way policy was moving.

Anyway, our superintendent, whose nickname "Tiger" wasn't because he was particularly ferocious, was so disturbed by the decision that he went straight down to Brotherton House to make representations to Brian Molloy, the assistant chief constable. I think that this file was the first one to have gone through the bureau so it was a bit of a landmark case and the decision was that the cautions would be given. No point setting up a new unit and immediately undermining it. At least one member of the same gang was convicted in connection with a very serious offence just a few years later, which led to some "I told you so" type comments but looking back, I can't see that a prosecution rather than a caution would have made any difference to what eventually happened.
volvojack
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Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Postby volvojack » Wed 21 Sep, 2016 5:22 pm

Though i personally ever had aspirations to be a Bobby i also think that i always had respect for them and the need society had for them. Although this is not "Secret Leeds" i know quite few Ex. Officers are members and would like their opinion of how modern Policing is different from the old. Down here in the West Country a trial of a man already serving a life sentence for the murder of a young girl as not only had a second trial for another girl but has been allowed to conduct his own defence, thiis after confessinng and taking Officers to the burial site.It would take pages and pages for me to put all of these events on here but just to say that Christopher Halliwell, a taxi driver was smirking and laughing at the victims family''s in court when the judge found him guilty. Apart from the obvious tragedy's to the girls family''s the Detective who brought this evil B......d to justice had to resign because of a technicality. Detective Super Steve Fulcher did not read him his rights before charging him and lawyer seized on this. upshot was that Mr. Fulcher had to resign and could not get work in the U.K. and now works in Somalia.
The parents of the two dead girls Becky Godden 20 years and Sian O'callaghan 22 years praised the Officer and said that if it had not been for his hard work and perseverance they would have never had any sort of peace and at last have their daughters back to bury.
I would think that it is very difficult when dealing with lowlife and the Scum that are around for a Polce Officer to always do thing exactly by the book

I realise that the whole thing would have got more press coverage down here but for anybody not fully aquainted with this whole thing it is all on Google.
jma
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Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Postby jma » Wed 21 Sep, 2016 9:12 pm

volvojack

The rules for the way the police in England and Wales investigate crime, including the way they deal with suspects were codified for the first time in the Police and Criminal Evidence Act, 1984 (PACE) and the accompanying Codes of Practice. There has been further legislation since then and the Codes are also amended from time to time.

Briefly, if it's alleged that evidence was obtained in contravention of PACE or the Codes, the judge may exclude it if he considers it unfair. (My words.) In this case, the judge excluded some pretty crucial evidence resulting in one murder charge not going ahead. I'm only going on media reports and I've read different reasons attributed to Mr Fulcher for acting as he did but in real life, rather than on the telly, it's not everday that somebody makes an admission like this and offers to help find the body, and even an experienced detective wouldn't have time to consult a lawyer. Plenty of others might have done broadly the same.

Be that as it may, Mr Fulcher's actions were the subject of a complaint from Becky Godden's father who felt that the faults in the investigation (at some point I think he referred to "fifty pages of mistakes") had led to his daughter's killer going unconvicted. Her mother has consistently supported the officer. The investigation by the Independent Police Complaints Commission covered various issues, including evidence that after being taken off the case, the officer had continued to hold press conferences about it. ie Not just a "technicality." Under the fairly new police discipline procedures, Mr Fulcher appeared before a disciplinary panel which ruled he should receive a formal warning ie not the sack. Several months later the officer resigned and I don't know if his exact reason has ever been published.

(I inadvertently deleted all that just as I had finished typing. Luckily, I remembered Ctrl Z)
jma
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Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Postby jma » Thu 22 Sep, 2016 8:41 pm

volvojack

This is to try to give an answer to your point about differences in policing, then and now.

First, I think it's important to realise that there is an awful lot of law and to enforce it properly, you need a good knowledge. If you refer back to the comments by iansmithofotley about Licensing hours, that's just an example of the kind of thing police officers committed to memory in initial training, studying to "pass their classes" (promotion exams) and later, on specialist courses for departments such as the CID and Road Traffic. One of the subjects we covered in some detail was "The Judges' Rules" which began "When a police officer is trying to discover whether or by whom an offence has been committed ... " These were in a very short booklet and dealt with things like the cautions "You are not obliged to say anything ... etc"

The Judges Rules were re-issued only a couple of years before I joined and I've found this in Hansard where the the Home Secretary was refusing to introduce something more hard-and-fast.

Mr. Brooke I do not, of course, control the debates in this House, but the Judges' Rules give guidance on the circumstances in which evidence would be regarded by the judges as admissible or not admissible, and the judges can exercise their discretion to determine whether the evidence in a case should or should not be admissible. I doubt whether we could get the same flexibility with any statutory rules.


http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/comm ... dges-rules

I think the point here is that there was always waggle room.

You must surely remember Jeremy Thorpe, the Liberal MP and his fall from grace. At the time, I was struck by some comments made on a BBC News programme, by Mr Thorpe's solicitor, Sir David Napley, a top lawyer of that era, who was complaining about his client's arrest and questioning. The interviewer asked if he thought there should be stronger rules to protect suspects and I'll paraphrase the reply as "Good Lord, no. The police have to deal with all sorts of wicked people but my client's a gentleman." I'd emphasise that this is "or words to that effect." I was surprised that the interviewer didn't challenge him, but it shows that there was more of a concept of goodies and baddies. What we would have referred to in Leeds as "ganifs." *

Within a couple of decades of Henry Brooke defending the Judges' Rules, attitudes had changed and the Judges' Rules were replaced by PACE which set down everything in detail, with less waggle room. In the subsequent three decades, there have been changes. In this context, perhaps the most significant was the change to the caution to include the bit about "it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned .... etc"

Overall, the rules are made to be followed.

* Ganif, is a Yiddish word meaning "thief." It was used widely by Leeds City Police officers as a term for "baddy." I've never known it to be used by any other police and even West Riding officers from places like Morley, Otley and Wetherby would not be familiar with it. It's a shibboleth to identify Leeds City Police. And for my next trick, I'll recite the Larceny Act 1861 backwards while standing on my head.

volvojack
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Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Postby volvojack » Sat 24 Sep, 2016 2:58 pm

[quote="jma"]volvojack

The rules for the way the police in England and Wales investigate crime, including the way they deal with suspects were codified for the first time in the Police and Criminal Evidence Act, 1984 (PACE) and the accompanying Codes of Practice. There has been further legislation since then and the Codes are also amended from time to time.

Briefly, if it's alleged that evidence was obtained in contravention of PACE or the Codes, the judge may exclude it if he considers it unfair. (My words.) In this case, the judge excluded some pretty crucial evidence resulting in one murder charge not going ahead. I'm only going on media reports and I've read different reasons attributed to Mr Fulcher for acting as he did but in real life, rather than on the telly, it's not everday that somebody makes an admission like this and offers to help find the body, and even an experienced detective wouldn't have time to consult a lawyer. Plenty of others might have done broadly the same.

Be that as it may, Mr Fulcher's actions were the subject of a complaint from Becky Godden's father who felt that the faults in the investigation (at some point I think he referred to "fifty pages of mistakes") had led to his daughter's killer going unconvicted. Her mother has consistently supported the officer. The investigation by the Independent Police Complaints Commission covered various issues, including evidence that after being taken off the case, the officer had continued to hold press conferences about it. ie Not just a "technicality." Under the fairly new police discipline procedures, Mr Fulcher appeared before a disciplinary panel which ruled he should receive a formal warning ie not the sack. Several months later the officer resigned and I don't know if his exact reason has ever been published.


Thank you jma for that informat
volvojack
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JoinedCOLON Tue 26 Jan, 2016 11:57 am

Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Postby volvojack » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 6:48 pm

[quote="volvojack"][quote="jma"]volvojack

The rules for the way the police in England and Wales investigate crime, including the way they deal with suspects were codified for the first time in the Police and Criminal Evidence Act, 1984 (PACE) and the accompanying Codes of Practice. There has been further legislation since then and the Codes are also amended from time to time.

Briefly, if it's alleged that evidence was obtained in contravention of PACE or the Codes, the judge may exclude it if he considers it unfair. (My words.) In this case, the judge excluded some pretty crucial evidence resulting in one murder charge not going ahead. I'm only going on media reports and I've read different reasons attributed to Mr Fulcher for acting as he did but in real life, rather than on the telly, it's not everday that somebody makes an admission like this and offers to help find the body, and even an experienced detective wouldn't have time to consult a lawyer. Plenty of others might have done broadly the same.

Be that as it may, Mr Fulcher's actions were the subject of a complaint from Becky Godden's father who felt that the faults in the investigation (at some point I think he referred to "fifty pages of mistakes") had led to his daughter's killer going unconvicted. Her mother has consistently supported the officer. The investigation by the Independent Police Complaints Commission covered various issues, including evidence that after being taken off the case, the officer had continued to hold press conferences about it. ie Not just a "technicality." Under the fairly new police discipline procedures, Mr Fulcher appeared before a disciplinary panel which ruled he should receive a formal warning ie not the sack. Several months later the officer resigned and I don't know if his exact reason has ever been published.


Thank you jma for that information
volvojack
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JoinedCOLON Tue 26 Jan, 2016 11:57 am

Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Postby volvojack » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 6:58 pm

Whilst i have great sympathy with anyone who has lost a family member, what ever the circumstances but in these cases Brutal Murders . I find it odd that Becky's Father has come out with such harsh criticism of the Detective I/C the case.
This is the same man who left Becky's Mother some time after and is the only person of the girls familys and friends who have not been loud in their praise of Mr. Fulcher.
ChrisHind
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JoinedCOLON Sun 23 Jul, 2017 7:10 pm

Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Postby ChrisHind » Thu 03 Aug, 2017 10:01 am

j.c.d. wroteColon
iansmithofotley wroteColonHi Brian,

I am fairly sure that Eric Walker is the only one who is still with us. I know that Derrick Holmes died in 1972 but I don't have dates for Joe Hepton and Geoff Hanson. The thing about Geoff's 'spoonerisms' is that they were not just 'one off's' - he said the same things (and others) all of the time in different situations and infront of different people.

I don't know what happened to Val. I think that I am right in saying that she was very seriously injured in a traffic accident, and nearly died, but I it was probably before your transfer to the R.U.C. If you join http://www.narpowestyorkshire.co.uk/ and look at the Leeds Section/Photographs there is a 1973 photograph of Val with Dave Maurie, Dave Musgrove, Jim Parrott and Roger Anderson. There are other photographs of Len Bradley, Arnold Pirie, Brian Barker and Geoff Hanson who were all at Upper Wortley PS C.I.D. at that time.

I am sorry to procrastinate (but it is thirty five years since I last saw you) and I don't want to bore any other members of the group. I believe that this new website (it changed recently) has facilities for private messages if required.




Just noticed the name Dave Maurie, I never was a Bobby but got to know Dave through a mutual friend, he was a really nice fellow and I just wondered how he was going on and if you could put up that photo with him on it. as I have not lived in Leeds for about 30 years I have lost contact with old friends.
Ta.

Best wishes.

Ian


Hi,
Joe Hepton was my Grandad he died yesterday 02-08-2017 aged 96yrs old he had a long and healthy life, I mentioned last week some of the names mentioned on here and he remembered them well.

iansmithofotley
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JoinedCOLON Fri 28 Dec, 2007 4:10 pm

Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Postby iansmithofotley » Thu 03 Aug, 2017 10:30 am

Hi ChrisHind,

I am sorry to hear about Joe's death. I always found him to be a great bloke. He was always approachable and friendly and was well respected amongst the detectives in the Leeds C.I.D. He was also great company over a pint.

Ian
ChrisHind
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Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Postby ChrisHind » Thu 03 Aug, 2017 3:46 pm

Hi Ian,
Thanks for that yes he was a great man who had a great life sorry I forgot to mention his collar number it was 353.
Chris

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