Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

[volvojack]

I think the more you go back in time the better the Police were, even though they did not have the technology of today just maybe their hands were not so tied with 'uman rights etc. .
An instance I remember is that in the 70s whilst living in Beeston I foolishly left about 20 pair of Dunlop Trainers in the back of my estate car overnight. Following day they were gone and when I rang Dewsbury Road station they sent up a Detective Mick Pierce (Who I am sure Ian will remember) after taking details he said something to the effect "Good Idea where they might be" within a couple of days he was back with them minus the boxes and they were tied together by the laces. I invited him in for a cup of tea and over it he mentioned that his teenage boys ( twins ?) wore that sort of thing. As I did not actually have a V.A.T. invoice I strongly suggested he have a pair for both of them. This he did and we became sort of friendly as it turned out I knew his brother Terry who worked in the Wholesale Fruit Market .
Now right or wrong that was my kind of Copper.
Sadly I think I heard sometime he had died of cancer

[iansmithofotley]

Hi Jack,

In those days, most of the people who joined the Police Force wanted a career and most were dedicated to doing their best for the public who they served. There was also a great sense of loyalty and camaraderie within the force. They were allowed to police using their own discretion and their own judgement and officers policed in that way. Occasionally, there were ‘targets’ based on types of crime, or particular criminals, or other problems, but they tended to be very short term until a particular problem was solved.

It was Home Office Circular 114/1983 (about police effectiveness, efficiency and performance) that was the start of the change and ‘targets’ became introduced more and more e.g. house burglary or robbery or reducing traffic accidents, etc., etc. In my opinion, since then, things have just gone from bad to worse and officers have become more and more involved with ‘targets’ so a lot of ‘normal policing’ never gets done. Of course, much of this has to do with money. Part of the reason for H.O. Circ. 114/1983 was that Police Forces were always wanting more money, in order to police, but things such as ‘crime detection rates’ or ‘street robbery detection rates’ or the ‘number of traffic accidents’ tended to stay the same, over decades. The government said “enough is enough” and forces had to be more accountable, hence the introduction of targets. In my opinion, successive governments have gradually destroyed traditional policing (despite technology and technology related crimes) and the police have become more and more a ‘political tool’ and chief officers have less power to manage their forces, in their own way, than they used to have.

In the ‘good old days’, many officers worked in uniform on a beat, on foot, on a ‘noddy bike’ or in a car, thereby displaying a police presence and also getting to know their local community, including criminals. It was always impossible to estimate how much this ‘police presence’ was worth in terms of crime prevention and the protection of life and property and often there were no results to be seen. Therefore, it was impossible to see what the force/government were getting in terms of ‘value for money’ so things changed and, in my view, for the worse.

The officer that you refer to was probably Mick Pearson (528). He joined with me in 1965 and we did our initial training together. In those days recruits had to be between 19 and 30 years old and Mick joined aged 30 as he had been in the army. He mainly worked in the Gipton Police Station area but later served in Divisional C.I.D. He went on to work in the Drugs Squad and later the Major Crime Unit. He died of cancer in 1989 aged 53, whilst still a serving officer.

Ian

[volvojack]

Hi Jack,

In those days, most of the people who joined the Police Force wanted a career and most were dedicated to doing their best for the public who they served. There was also a great sense of loyalty and camaraderie within the force. They were allowed to police using their own discretion and their own judgement and officers policed in that way. Occasionally, there were ‘targets’ based on types of crime, or particular criminals, or other problems, but they tended to be very short term until a particular problem was solved.

It was Home Office Circular 114/1983 (about police effectiveness, efficiency and performance) that was the start of the change and ‘targets’ became introduced more and more e.g. house burglary or robbery or reducing traffic accidents, etc., etc. In my opinion, since then, things have just gone from bad to worse and officers have become more and more involved with ‘targets’ so a lot of ‘normal policing’ never gets done. Of course, much of this has to do with money. Part of the reason for H.O. Circ. 114/1983 was that Police Forces were always wanting more money, in order to police, but things such as ‘crime detection rates’ or ‘street robbery detection rates’ or the ‘number of traffic accidents’ tended to stay the same, over decades. The government said “enough is enough” and forces had to be more accountable, hence the introduction of targets. In my opinion, successive governments have gradually destroyed traditional policing (despite technology and technology related crimes) and the police have become more and more a ‘political tool’ and chief officers have less power to manage their forces, in their own way, than they used to have.

In the ‘good old days’, many officers worked in uniform on a beat, on foot, on a ‘noddy bike’ or in a car, thereby displaying a police presence and also getting to know their local community, including criminals. It was always impossible to estimate how much this ‘police presence’ was worth in terms of crime prevention and the protection of life and property and often there were no results to be seen. Therefore, it was impossible to see what the force/government were getting in terms of ‘value for money’ so things changed and, in my view, for the worse.

The officer that you refer to was probably Mick Pearson (528). He joined with me in 1965 and we did our initial training together. In those days recruits had to be between 19 and 30 years old and Mick joined aged 30 as he had been in the army. He mainly worked in the Gipton Police Station area but later served in Divisional C.I.D. He went on to work in the Drugs Squad and later the Major Crime Unit. He died of cancer in 1989 aged 53, whilst still a serving officer.

Ian

You are quite correct Ian It was indeed Mick Pearson.

[jma]

I've remembered another incident involving Black Sam. I'm surprised I din't think of it when I was writing my earlier post, because it influenced my own approach later.

As a young PC, I didn't have a lot of trouble getting to work for early turn, largely because 532 Brian Lonsdale used to pick me up at the end of the street in his Mini. If he wasn't working the same shift as me, the round-the-houses 46 bus used to pass the end of the street and passed the nick at 0540, just in time for parade. (Weekends were a bit harder.)

The first time I was ever reported for being late was when I had slept in. 644 Alan Mann came in a panda car to pick me up and later that morning I was sent in to see the superintendent Ted Smith. I think that few policemen, especially in those days, would deliberately sleep in, and I certainly hadn't but he ranted and raved at me for several minutes explaing things like how colleagues might be retained on duty at the end of a night shift if the early turn shift was short staffed and a lot more. A telling off from a sergeant would have been just as effective to most probationer PC's. Anyway, some time later, there was a cock-up with my duties. A court warning (notification that I had to attend court) came through when I was on nights, for the following Tuesday which was a rest day. The inspector, Harry Bottomley had me in and "warned" me for court and told me he would change my shift to 10x6 days so I could go. In later years, there were all sorts of changes to the regulations giving eight days notice of a requirement to work a rest day and the Monday and Tuesday after nights were declared to end at noon on Wednesday and so on.

In those days, the inspectors had a pegboard in their office on which the advance duties were planned and for whatever reason, perhaps related to his liking for a sherbet or two, he put my peg in a 6am hole. The former police officers who post on here will know that apart from anything else, bringing somebody on at 6am for court was a no-no because cases frequently continued into the afternoon, which would have just incurred more "time in the book."

In die course, I got a knock on the door (PC 921 - I can't remember his name because he didn't stay long and somebody else got the number) Into work, no inspector working, so par for the course was a bollocking from the sergeant, but he reported me. (I'll omit his name and number here.) In spite of what seemed to me like a pretty good explanation, when I got back from court it was straight into see Black Sam. To say I was worried would be a massive understatement. When I went in and stood to attention, he was busy on the phone. Without looking at me he interrupted his phone chat and growled "Warned" with the phone still stuck to his lug. The only way I could be certain he was talking to me was that he had put his hand over the mouthpiece.He resumed his conversation on the phone and I took that as the signal to get out. I had been fearing a trip to see the chief constable so the feeling of relief overcame any feeling of grievance. Remember, this was the 1960's when HR be that Human Resources experts or Human Rights hadn't reached the police service. One word was certainly as effective as a prolonged rant.

Many years later, when I was working at The Tyrls - a white-elephant police station built as the HQ for City of Bradford Police, just before they were taken over by the donkey wallopers and officially opened by HM The Queen when Ron Gregory was the chief - I bumped into a DC who I knew from Leeds He opned with "The last time you spoke to me was to give me a bollocking." I'd forgotten the incident, but apparently he had parked a police car in a magistrate's spot on Victoria Square (the frontage of Leeds Town Hall) and I'd had to speak to him about this heinous crime. When I told him I couldn't remember he said "You said 'Worse things happen at sea."

Another warning that somebody remebered without a rant.

[iansmithofotley]

Hi Mick,

Upon amalgamation, PC 921 was Ian Payne-Ross. He left the force prematurely. He lived in Otley for a time in the 1980's, then moved to Ilkley. I used to see him when I went windsurfing but I have lost touch with him and have no idea where he is.

Ian

[jma]

volvojack

I remembered that among my souvenirs I have a badge of the type I mentioned in my earlier reply. If this works, I've attached a picture at the foot of this post.

I presume that in the picture you referred to, it will be on a high-collared tunic next to the wearer's number. More recently, on the style of jacket with lapels worn with a collar and tie, they were displayed on the epaulettes, above the officer's number, even though these continued to be referred to as collar numbers. Some other forces, but by no means all, had their own badges of this type, more often worn on the lapels than the epaulettes.

As a bit of useless information, I can date the change of tunic fairly accurately as recounted to me by MiggyBill's Uncle Dennis who told me that he was one of the contingent of Leeds City Police officers who went to London to see the Queen ie to help line the route at the Coronation in June 1952. They were taken by Leeds City Transport bus to the railway station and as the conductor was unfamiliar with the new uniforms, he assumed they were strangers to Leeds and began to give them detailed instructions about which way to go to catch a train.

After that, they were phased in gradually with the older style tunic eventually being worn only on nights, till they were discarded altogether.

Ian

Yes, although 921 Ian Payne Ross started at Dewsbury Road, when I moved to Wortley in 1974 he was on my shift, so I know him from that time. The 921 who knocked on my door was his predecessor - the first PC 921 in Leeds.

badge.jpg (240.76 KiB) Viewed 5013 times

PS

After posting this it occurred to me to check my copy of the official history of Leeds Police. It confirms Uncle Dennis's story, noting that 86 members of the force in their new uniforms travelled to London on 31 May to be ready for duty on 2 June along the route (but no mention of the confused bus conductor.)

[blackprince]

Minor correction ( to show I am paying attention) - the Coronation was 2 June 1953.

[volvojack]

Good Morning jma.
Yes you are correct when you say the badge / crown is behind the number on his high necked tunic.

Hopefully my daughter will be back soon and put the photo on as i do not have a clue. Regards Jack Daly.

[jma]

Minor correction ( to show I am paying attention) - the Coronation was 2 June 1953.

Thanks for that and I have no excuse for the silly error. I'm old enough to know the correct date having received a glass coronation mug and a disappointingly small commemorative tin of sweets. ( "Older readers" will remember that in advance of the happy event, Leeds schoolchildren were all promised a tin of sweets. Brought up with post-war sugar rationing, we didn't see many sweets but the only sweet tins any of us in the Salisbury's, Armley, Leeds 12 had ever seen were the big ones in some shops. )

None of that is any excuse for my lack of attention to detail, but once you have made a mistake, it's often hard to spot it when re-reading your own stuff. I did spend a fair bit of my career checking the details in other people's paperwork, which just aggravates my own offence.

I mentioned checking my facts in the history of Leeds Police and, needless to say the date is correct in there.

In short, "Guilty as charged, m'lud, and no mitigation.
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While I was writing this, volvojack posted and reminded me that I spent so much time messing about trying to remember how to reduce the file size of a photograph that I was worn out by the time it came to write the accompanying text. That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.
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MiggyBill

It has occurred to me that your Scottish officer may well have been 104 "Jock" Calder. He was probably what we called a "Unit Beat Man" in the early days of Unit Beat Policing ie officers assigned to patrol their own "Unit Beat" on foot when "panda" cars replaced noddies in Leeds. I've no idea what his first name was, as I've already explained, the only time I'd have heard even his surname would have been to differentiate him from all the other Jocks. According to my history book, his initials are JF so it could well be John. I cannot imagine he was christened Jock.

I bumped into him several years ago in Tesco's in Batley. In between our reminiscing, he mentioned that he was having a lot of trouble from Kirklees Council planning dept., over he field he owned in Batley where his daughter kept her horse.

[jma]

In the 70s I lived in Beeston and one of my neighbours ( a Bobby) had a desk job and had very grey hair, I can't for the life of me remember his name but some of the lads from Dewsbury Rd. nick used to call in the Conservative club just higher up the road for a couple. they used to joke about this guy that he was frightened to go out after dark. Some lads from there sometimes came over to the Beech pub on Tong Road for a couple of pints which caused a bit of consternation among the "Likely Lads" in the Tap room. Happy days.

I've been looking back over some of the older stuff and I found this. When I started at Dewsbury Road there were quite a lot of serving officers who had inside jobs, many of which involved operational policing eg the office "clerks" who staffed the enquiry office 24/7, wireless operators ditto some like the newly installed "collators" who worked alternating shifts and a smaller number in admin (sergeant and a couple of PC's) who had true desk jobs (including arranging the policing of Elland Road.)

Although there must have been others living nearby in Beeston, the only one I know for sure was 655 Alan Moy who was an absolute gent. In particular, as a probationary PC, I always found him completely helpful, which not everybody was. Alan worked in the front office where he was always on top of the job - nothing flustered him. He was a single man and lived in digs, just off Old Lane. From July 1968, I used to drive the panda car for that area 69/70 beats. He certainly wasn't afraid of the dark: he used to walk into work and back home day and night in uniform (ie not in a "civvie" mac.) A real bobby with his cape over his shoulder. Office clerks worked their own rota but if ever I was due to finish when he was starting, I'd look out for him to give him a lift in. As soon as he got into work, he was ready to relieve a colleague. If that was 521 Lenny Longden he'd say something like "Don't worry Leonides, you leave it with me..."

One morning when Alan was walking into work, he disturbed a burglar and arrested him. The point here is that he had no radio and since he wasn't working any sort of beat, he was outside the system of supervisory checks. If he had got into difficulties, when he hadn't turned up for work, the first thought might well have been that he had slept in. Alan would have been in his late forties, which made him an old man in police terms, especially when tacking somebody half his age. Anyway, he got his prisoner safely into the nick. The duty inspector was Mick Hirst who wrote him up for a commend. A certain chief superintendent knocked it back on the basis that locking up burglars was part of his job. Mick Hirst was the only person in the place with the bottle to stand up to him and they do say you could hear it in Hunslet Hall Road. The result was a compromise and Alan got a "special mention" in the weekly orders. It adds nothing to the annual policing bill to give somebody a bit of recognition but a lot of bosses seemed reluctant to do it.

After I left Dewsbury Road in 1972, I didn't meet him again until I was working at headquarters in Wakefield in the mid-1980's and he had retired. I bumped into him in the street and he was his same friendly self. He told me he was working for Wakefield Council as a PUSWA inspector. (Checking that roadworks had been completed properly.) They had got somebody really conscientious and competent.