The Bulls Head Domestic stree Holbeck

[j.c.d.]

Thanks for that it will be my eight operation in less than five years .Im used to it by now I still tell jokes when there putting me to sleep you cant put an Hunslet Lad down .LOL

Hey up Sid, next time I am in Leeds I will look you up and take you down Hunslet and buy you a couple of pints that if we can find a decent boozer still open down there. I hear even the "Engine" on the moor has shut.

[tyke bhoy]

Thanks for that it will be my eight operation in less than five years .Im used to it by now I still tell jokes when there putting me to sleep you cant put an Hunslet Lad down .LOL

Hey up Sid, next time I am in Leeds I will look you up and take you down Hunslet and buy you a couple of pints that if we can find a decent boozer still open down there. I hear even the "Engine" on the moor has shut.

Only decent boozer in 'unslet still open is probably t'garden gate. Come to think of it apart from the Penny Hill ? opposite the parish church it might be the only one There is the Crooked Clock I suppose

[j.c.d.]

Thanks for that it will be my eight operation in less than five years .Im used to it by now I still tell jokes when there putting me to sleep you cant put an Hunslet Lad down .LOL

Hey up Sid, next time I am in Leeds I will look you up and take you down Hunslet and buy you a couple of pints that if we can find a decent boozer still open down there. I hear even the "Engine" on the moor has shut.

Only decent boozer in 'unslet still open is probably t'garden gate. Come to think of it apart from the Penny Hill ? opposite the parish church it might be the only one There is the Crooked Clock I suppose

A lad I know here in Gloucester told me his brother is the landlord of the pub next to the Engine and keeps a good pint (Prospect maybe)

[tilly]

Thanks guys all the pretty nurses around me im getting hot round the collar.Back to The Bulls Head Domestic Street.

[Tinny]

Thanks for your rely tilly, I bough my first car from Oldriges garage as is Salford van hire, there was a gypsy camp half why up domestic street, some came in the pub never any trouble . My dad was told if there was ever any trouble just to have a word with the leader of the camp and he would sort it out.

There was actually two yards there, where the pickle factory used to be. The top part had gypsies in it but the bottom part was the yard where the travelling showmen used to live ie. the people who owned the feast rides and sideshows.


Tinny

[j.c.d.]

Thanks for your rely tilly, I bough my first car from Oldriges garage as is Salford van hire, there was a gypsy camp half why up domestic street, some came in the pub never any trouble . My dad was told if there was ever any trouble just to have a word with the leader of the camp and he would sort it out.

There was actually two yards there, where the pickle factory used to be. The top part had gypsies in it but the bottom part was the yard where the travelling showmen used to live ie. the people who owned the feast rides and sideshows.


Yes, I remember the show / feast travellers that used to spend the winter months behind the Blue Ball and Friendly Pubs. they were a different breed to the Irish Gypsy's we have over here nowadays


Tinny

[j.c.d.]

Though Gypsy's were banned from licenced premises throughout the U.K. before this 'uman rights" was brought in certain pubs would allow them some access, usually if the Landlord was a bit of a Pikey himself. the main problem seemed to be that they, after drinking, would fight usually over relatives as they inter married into close families and family differences came to the surface after a few Bevies. In Holbeck the Blue Ball and the Friendly Inn allowed them in and as they were shacked up for the winter behind the pubs they were generally well behaved, if not knives were often produced quite rapidly, The Coach and Horses pub on the junction of Beeston Rd. and Elland Rd. had a Paddy landlord in those days "As one door closes another one shuts") was one of his more sober remarks and he allowed the Gypsy lads into his side room only and the normal clientele kept well away from that room in . Though I spent many happy years in Holbeck, Beeston and Hunslet pub I never saw much trouble with Travellers though as I mentioned earlier they were not allowed in. If there was a Gypsy Funeral in the area most Pubs closed until it was well and truly over as mourners would come from miles around.

[liits]

“Gypsies” were never banned from licensed premises under the terms of any version of the Licensing Act and I know of quite a few pubs who were reported to the [then] Racial Equalities Commission and its later guises, for having the “No Gypsies / Travellers” sign displayed at the front door.
Most people know the various person whom it was stipulated should not be “served refreshment” [and two of them are generally wrong].
Persons who are drunk.
A Police Officer in uniform
A Prostitute.
Drunks, true. Police Officer in uniform was actually “A Police Officer in uniform or on duty except as directed by a superior Officer”. Superior was later superceded by “Senior” when coppers stopped being superior - apparently! Serving the working girls should never have been a problem as the legislation was actually “Known prostitutes – except for the purposes of providing reasonable refreshment”. This was a bit of a grey area and the Licensee being able to prove reasonable refreshment was always a lesser argument to some superior copper stating that they were being solicited [prostitution itself has never been a crime].
The two less commonly known types of person whom could be refused were “known thieves” and “Smugglers”. Known thieves would have covered half the clientele of some of the pubs that I ran and as to smugglers, in one particular pub we sent the cig machine back as two particular chaps [coach drivers] could supply as much in the way of cigs and tobacco as any bunch of smokers could handle!

[iansmithofotley]

Hi j.c.d.,

When I worked at Upper Wortley Pol. Stn. In 1965/67, we had regular problems, particularly at weekends, with gypsies fighting amongst themselves (and others) at the bottom of Tong Road. The pubs involved were mainly the Beech, the Crown and occasionally the City. At that time, many of the ‘gypsies’ (or ‘Travellers’) had moved into houses in the Avenues (First to Eighteenth), near the pubs, and also the Danubes off Gelderd Road. The ones that lived in the Danubes tended to use the Cattle Market and Smyth’s Arms but they would often walk along Copley Hill and visit their friends in the Beech and the Crown.

Also, at this time, the dedicated ‘Traveller’s Site’ at Cottingley Springs off Gelderd Road (which was not very far away) was just starting to get established, so travellers from there would also turn up.

The main man at the time, and self proclaimed ‘King of the Gypsies’, was Thomas O’Docherty who was often involved in incidents and was often locked up for drunkenness offences or committing a Breach of the Peace. In later years, he managed to reform himself, somewhat, and I think that he was involved with the development of the Gypsy Council.

This is an interesting site for further information:

http://www.grtleeds.co.uk/ourService/tommyStory.html

(Although, he is referred to as Docherty on the site, I always knew him as O’Docherty.)

On Saturday 17th March 1973, it was St Patrick’s Day. I was a uniform sergeant at Dewsbury Road Pol. Stn. and was working nights. I was on patrol in a Police Van, with a colleague, when around 11pm, the Police Control Room started to get numerous calls from members of the public that a man was lying in the middle of the road in Beeston Road and traffic was driving around him. A nearby P.C., on foot patrol, was sent to investigate and found a man incapably drunk lying in the middle of the road. There were no other pedestrians around at that time.

The officer dragged the man to the side of the road and arrested him for being drunk and incapable and for his own safety. He called for our van for transport to the Bridewell at Leeds Town Hall. We carried the man into the van and he died on the way to the Bridewell. We took him to the L.G.I. and a doctor confirmed that he was dead so we had to take him to the public mortuary in Mill Street (as he had not died in the L.G.I.).

Because he had died in Police Custody and the surrounding circumstances of the death, there had to be an inquest. It transpired that he had been drinking all day, since 11am, in the Coach and Horses and the Golden Lion in Beeston Road, celebrating St Patrick’s Day. He had drunk so much that the alcohol content in his body was so high that some of his essential organs were incapable of functioning and he choked to death on his own vomit. He was an Irishman who had been drinking all day with travellers and gypsies and also some of his family members.

I remember that when we drove past the Coach and Horses, towards Elland Road, a bunch of drunks staggered out of the pub and stood in the road, infront of us, and flagged us down. Somehow, they were aware of the arrest of the man and tried to persuade us to release him, which we obviously didn’t. The drunken man was incapable of looking after himself and the bunch of drunks were also incapable of looking after him as, although they were still standing, they were all very, very, drunk themselves. In any case, he had been arrested.

It was a very sad case but these things happen in policing and you just had to get on with the job.

Ian

[j.c.d.]

After doing my National service in the West country I returned to Leeds, later in my work I travelled a fair bit up and down England , liked a pint or three and I can say that up to and into the 70s that most Pubs had a sign on the door with a caravan picture covered with a red X. stating quite clearly "No Gypsys allowed" Of course every town or village I suppose had Pubs where they did get in (I have already mentioned three in Leeds earlier) I used the Beech Tong Rd. in the 70s when Stan Dodds, ex Leeds R.L. was the landlord and he only let the odd one in, they were usually not travellers. I know Tommy Doc. used a few pubs higher up Tong Rd. and that was because he kept the other Pikeys in their place.. The Lee family were spread over Holbeck and Beeston and I never ever saw or heard them in any sort of trouble so not all were dodgy but there were plenty of them who were once they had booze in side them.