The Old Lion & Lamb in Seacroft

String o' beads · Post by **String o' beads** » Wed 21 Dec, 2011 7:55 pm

How funny.On the mock up drawing of what Leeds might be like in 2026, the artist has included a skull on a brick wall.Just saying like...

Post by **chameleon** » Wed 21 Dec, 2011 9:48 pm

My Great Grandfather was Samuel Dobson, Hay & Corn merchant of the long - gone Poplar House which stood on the corner opposite the Lion & Lamb, latterly a Netto store.As was inherent to the times, relationships readily formed within the small discrete village community and thus, through marriage, my family became connected to many others in the area includung the Sowdens, Townends and Lumbs.The following is taken from Mrs C's research into that bit of my ancestry which links to the L & L. -'The Lion and Lamb, 997 York Road, Seacroft, Leeds.There have been at least two Lion and Lamb public houses/Inns in Seacroft (see below and the entry relating to the 1881 census)Park Farm, also known as Townend’s farm, Seacroft was demolished in the 1950s to make way for the new Lion and Lamb (so next door to the original Lion and Lamb): It was originally called the Seacroft Hotel and was a square shaped sprawling building built next door (to the left as you look at the front) of the earlier Lion and Lamb on land now occupied by Aldi and its car park. The modern Lion and Lamb closed in 2006. The original Lion and Lamb had been part of the Wilson estate and was sold, in 1931 along with the white houses next door. The Inn was sold to a Birmingham brewery and stopped brewing its own beer (in the brew houses to the rear of the main house/Inn) soon after. It closed in the 1950s and became home to the Spence family who ran their wrought iron business from the premises and appear to have used part of the house itself as their workshops, before being bought in the 1990’s and turned into a ‘bed and breakfast’ business. Sadly, the owners renamed it ‘The Old Lamb’, possibly to distinguish it from the pub next door.The Lion and Lamb was first listed as a Grade II building on 5 August 1976 (UID 465844) and amended 11 Sept 1996 - Public house, now guesthouse, altered early C20. Early C19. Hammer-dressed gritstone, stone slate hipped roof. 2 storeys with cellars and added attic dormer. 3 windows, plain stone lintels and sills, sashes with glazing bars. Central round-headed doorway with semicircular fanlight with glazing bars. Large C20 central dormer window of 3 lights. 2 chimney stacks at ridge ends rebuilt, 1 in brick. Rear: added single-storey outshut bay with large windows, early C20; steps and barrel ramp to beer cellar right. INTERIOR: central through-passage plan with staircase left.The publicity material for the recent (2011) sale, states it was built in 1884, however, this appears to be at odds with the information I have gathered when tracing my husband’s families who lived in Seacroft when it was still a rural village on the outskirts of Leeds. An 1822 Baines Directory shows William Townend as the victualler of the Lion and Lamb in Seacroft and when Benjamin, son of William and Elizabeth Townend of Seacroft was born in 1782, father William was shown as an Innkeeper of Seacroft. In the same year, James Townend (probably brother to William) was the victualler of the New Inn, Seacroft. The Lion and Lamb is shown on the 1836 - 51 tithe map as occupied by Benjamin Townend (Inn, Outoffices etc) 25 perches of land shown as Plot 69, owned by John Wilson Esq. He also occupied Plot 70 (Malt Kiln) which was directly behind the Lion and Lamb which was another 12 perches of land owned by Wilson.In 1841, Benjmain Townend was a 55 year old blacksmith living next door to Seacroft Hall (the Lion and Lamb is almost always shown in census returns as next to Seacroft Hall)Great Grandfather was Samuel Dobson (1854 – 1913) who lived at Poplar House, Seacroft (opposite the Lion and Lamb). His first wife, Sarah had died in 1895 and in 1899, Samuel married Alvarella Leighton Sowden (1867 - 1942) daughter of Henry Sowden (1825 – 1879) and Isabella (nee Lodge) (1834 – 192. Samuel’s son Harold, married Pollie Townend (2 X Gt Granddaughter of William and Elizabeth Townend) in Seacroft, 1907.Henry Sowden was living at Broom Hills Farm in Potternewton in 1841 with his parents: father Thomas was a 50 year old Innkeeper. By 1851, Henry and his siblings are living with their widowed mother Mary Sowden in Seacroft., Mary is a 63 year old Innkeeper, although the Inn is not named, it is next to Seacroft Hall in the census walk and therefore highly likely to be the Lion and Lamb. Henry is by now aged 26 and is an ostler.By 1861, May Sowden is aged 73 and with her son Henry aged 34 are both shown as Innkeepers at the Lion and lamb in Seacroft. By 1871, Henry is aged 46, and married to a 37 year old Isabella, he is now the sole Innkeeper, and the 1872 Whites directory of Leeds shows him as the licensed victualler of the Lion and Lamb.At the back of St James, Seacroft, in the overgrown and untended area a Sowden grave - Here rest the mortal remains of Thomas Sowden Innkeeper who died April 3rd 1848 aged 60 years. Also Mary relict of the above departed this life Oct 16th 1863 aged 74 years. Also Henry Sowden son of the above who departed this life August 31st 1879 aged 54. Also William Henry the beloved son of Henry and Isabella Sowden who died December 7th 1887 aged 18 years. Thy will be done. (Numbers suspect due to weathering)Come 1881 there is confusion! The Lion and Lamb (schedule number 55) is being run by Henry Shepherd, a 35 year old publican, however, Isabella Sowden, who had been widowed when husband Henry died in 1879, is also shown as an Innkeeper and from the geographic location (next to Seacroft Hall) it appears that she is still living at the Lion and Lamb – why is there then a second Inn with the same name, run by Henry Shepherd and apparently some distance down the road?By 1891 Isabella is aged 55 and is once again living at the Lion and Lamb where she is the Innkeeper.Isabella is buried at St James, Manston, she is recorded as the widow of Henry Sowden, who died at Stanks on 11 Feb 1928 aged 93.On the 1901 and 1911 census, the Lion and Lamb is home to George Dennell and his family; including daughter Nellie. On 2 Nov 1911, Nellie Dennell married Ronald Stuart McNeill from Harrogate, and when George Dennell died on 8 Nov 1928, he Nellie and Ronald were all living at the Lion and Lamb Hotel in Seacroft. His will was proved by Nellie, Mabel Lodge (nee Dennell and wife of Charles William Lodge of Newkin (Nookin?) and Fred Cornforth. Several other relatives were involved in Seacroft business’, Walter Dobson ran the Old Red Lion on Whinmoor, the Lumb familes were closely linked with the Dobsons and there are several instances of families intermarrying which can make researching the family history rather confusing! The Lion and Lamb would have been well known to the Dobson family as they lived opposite it in Poplar House for many years, they also lived in Grove House in Nookin, and other relatives later lived in Seacroft Grange and various farms around the area.(I’d be very interested to hear of any information you might have on any of the people who have been involved with the pub – in particular, I wonder if you have a good copy of a picture of the Lion and Lamb with a horse drawn ‘bus; standing outside. There is at least one man in the picture and you can just see the sign over the door giving the landlords name which I think may have included ‘Dennison’, perhaps as a second name?)If there is anything else I can help with please let me know – We’re really looking forward to seeing your pictures and if you do have any names of local people in the various scrapbooks etc you have found as these could well be our relations!'

liits · Post by **liits** » Wed 21 Dec, 2011 11:56 pm

Chameleon, I may be able to help you with the Dobson's of the Old Red Lion but I'll need a couple of days.

Post by **cnosni** » Thu 22 Dec, 2011 12:38 am

liits wrote: Chameleon, I may be able to help you with the Dobson's of the Old Red Lion but I'll need a couple of days. From what Liits has told me Steve he will need a couple of days.Liits has a dark secret.

Post by **chameleon** » Thu 22 Dec, 2011 9:32 am

cnosni wrote: liits wrote: Chameleon, I may be able to help you with the Dobson's of the Old Red Lion but I'll need a couple of days. From what Liits has told me Steve he will need a couple of days.Liits has a dark secret. You wouldn't be stirring it wouldn't be stirring things for liits would you???

Post by **chameleon** » Thu 22 Dec, 2011 9:39 am

liits wrote: Chameleon, I may be able to help you with the Dobson's of the Old Red Lion but I'll need a couple of days. Seems there's always something new to be found liits, anything and everything is of value as you appreciate. A puzzle we have we have is the confusion surounding the note in the census of two different buildings, a distance apart, on the census walking route, both seemingly named the Lion & Lamb. Must be worth looking into.

liits · Post by **liits** » Thu 22 Dec, 2011 11:20 am

chameleon wrote: cnosni wrote: liits wrote: Chameleon, I may be able to help you with the Dobson's of the Old Red Lion but I'll need a couple of days. From what Liits has told me Steve he will need a couple of days.Liits has a dark secret. You wouldn't be stirring it wouldn't be stirring things for liits would you??? No, he's not stiring it, only messing around. He asked me how I gotten the info so I explained that I've copied all the Licensing Registers 1858 to [approx] 1960 and all the Trade Directories. The Licensing Registes are brilliant! All this combined with Ancestry....

liits · Post by **liits** » Thu 22 Dec, 2011 11:23 am

chameleon wrote: liits wrote: Chameleon, I may be able to help you with the Dobson's of the Old Red Lion but I'll need a couple of days. Seems there's always something new to be found liits, anything and everything is of value as you appreciate. A puzzle we have we have is the confusion surounding the note in the census of two different buildings, a distance apart, on the census walking route, both seemingly named the Lion & Lamb. Must be worth looking into. I think I know the error you mean and it's an error on the part of the census compiler using the same premises name twice. Should, I think [from memory] have been the Rising Sun. I check, though.

Post by **cnosni** » Thu 22 Dec, 2011 11:35 am

liits wrote: chameleon wrote: cnosni wrote: liits wrote: Chameleon, I may be able to help you with the Dobson's of the Old Red Lion but I'll need a couple of days. From what Liits has told me Steve he will need a couple of days.Liits has a dark secret. You wouldn't be stirring it wouldn't be stirring things for liits would you??? No, he's not stiring it, only messing around. He asked me how I gotten the info so I explained that I've copied all the Licensing Registers 1858 to [approx] 1960 and all the Trade Directories. The Licensing Registes are brilliant! All this combined with Ancestry.... Frankly i thought it was better when people thought you may have had a sixth sense,or even more astounding,access to an unknown yet unbelievably fantastic websiteBTW Chameleon,excellent bit of FH research by Mrs Chameleon

minksymoo · Post by **minksymoo** » Thu 22 Dec, 2011 11:40 am

Geordie-exile wrote: Oh my! Thank goodness you didn't throw those away.That's going to keep me happy for hours. Articles on the Yorkshire Crown, Knostrop Hall, the Calls and Kirkgate as well as the Seacroft and other stuff.I'm contemplating a trip to Leeds just to look a the scrap book! It's quite the tome! All I did was just turn a few random pages, it is absolutely STUFFED- some pages are 5 articles deep. Really we need to start scanning them but its a gargantuan task so going to hang fire until the house is finished......then lock myself in a room with the scanner, some bread and butter and a bottle of rum.