SecretLeeds - History, culture and architecture in Leeds

drapesy wrote: Si wrote: drapesy wrote: For comparison here again is the drawing of the Phoenix that was on page 1 At first glance you might think I'm mad - but look again an you'll see a lot of similarities. Bear in mind also that there may well be some artistic licence on the drawing.Look in particular at the quite grand door on cross York street - very impressive for a tatty lodging house! and why would you put such a good door abutting the Railway Bridge?? also look at the line below the first floor windows. This is without question the exact site of the Phoenix - and I cant' believe the Phoenix would be demolished and such a similar building put up in its place. I believe the building of the viaduct only resulted in PART of the Phoenix being demolished whilst this portion survived until 1908.     It's the same site, but are you sure it's the same building, Drapesy? It's either substantially rebuilt (the doors are in the same places) or the drawing shows a huge amount of artistic licence! I'm not 100 per cent - but its certainly my 'gut feeling.' I will try to find O.S. maps that might make it clearer. As you say the doors are in the same places - so are the first floor windows - and I can't believe its just coincidence. I'll check my maps, too.

I'm not convinced they are the same. If the engraving is to scale the gents by the door reach the window sills and it's a good 3 gents' to the first floor windows. Where as in the photo the person standing in front is already half way to the first floor. Assuming they are not a giant. Also the engraving shows a chimney on the facing end that's not evident on the photo but if the are the same the roof and upper floor has been extensively remodelled.

Si wrote: drapesy wrote: Si wrote: drapesy wrote: For comparison here again is the drawing of the Phoenix that was on page 1 At first glance you might think I'm mad - but look again an you'll see a lot of similarities. Bear in mind also that there may well be some artistic licence on the drawing.Look in particular at the quite grand door on cross York street - very impressive for a tatty lodging house! and why would you put such a good door abutting the Railway Bridge?? also look at the line below the first floor windows. This is without question the exact site of the Phoenix - and I cant' believe the Phoenix would be demolished and such a similar building put up in its place. I believe the building of the viaduct only resulted in PART of the Phoenix being demolished whilst this portion survived until 1908.     It's the same site, but are you sure it's the same building, Drapesy? It's either substantially rebuilt (the doors are in the same places) or the drawing shows a huge amount of artistic licence! I'm not 100 per cent - but its certainly my 'gut feeling.' I will try to find O.S. maps that might make it clearer. As you say the doors are in the same places - so are the first floor windows - and I can't believe its just coincidence. I'll check my maps, too. Right. I've checked my maps (pre-railway Godfrey OS big scale 1847 Leeds Lower Briggate and Riverside, and post-railway Godfrey OS smaller scale 1908 South Leeds) and it is my opinion that the two buildings are not the same. I think they were opposite each other on the north side of Kirkgate, either side of Cross York Street (previously York Street.) The road in the foreground of the drawing of The Phoenix is Kirkgate (it's gable-end fronts Cross York Street.) Turning 90 degrees right gives us the view of the photo of the lodging house, roughly. The drawn woman (extreme right) in the crinolines is standing where the scruffy git is in the photo! According to the map, the railway went straight through the Phoenix site. The only part which could have survived, was at the back, but it is not shaded, indicating an empty boundary. The Grove, which was opposite, was similarly wiped out by the viaduct. The reason that the lodging house has an ornate doorway right next to the viaduct, is because the back of the building had to be remodelled due to the railway being built. The upstairs window (by the measuring pole) is very close to the (new) corner of the building, suggesting a re-build. PS The 'line' below the first floor windows is called a string-course, and is a common architectural feature.    

Thanks for that Si- I know exactly what you mean and I think you may well be right!    

Were down to 3 pubs on Kirkgate at present with the shock closure/boarding up of the Duck and Drake a few weeks ago - hopefully this will be only temporary - I can't believe someone cant make a go of this pub .

There's an 1888 map in Kirkgate Market - An Illustrated History, by Steven Burt & Kevin Grady, which showsThe Market Tavern on the corner of George Street, opposite Turner's Yard & St Georges StoresLondon Tavern, on the market side of George street, by what appears to be a markeyt entrance between Ludgate Hill & East Laneunfortunately, most of these streets aren't on a current map.

Duck and Drake shut? Jeez. To be pragmatic, I guess the Council will eventually get their way when all of old Kirkgate falls down and they can make it into yet another 'quarter'. Great.

Geordie-exile wrote: Duck and Drake shut? Jeez. To be pragmatic, I guess the Council will eventually get their way when all of old Kirkgate falls down and they can make it into yet another 'quarter'. Great. To be fair i think the Palace has given it a bit of a drubbing,real ales,good amount of seating,outside seating at rear and front,good food at a good price,caters for those who want wine or coffee.Youve got to cover all bases these days.I do hope its temporary,i love the Duck,but The Palace shades it.In these times its tough

They are indeed, Chris. There's less and less pubs in which to spend the money I haven't got.    

I read your comments with interest,just a couple of points,sometime ago I read an article in the Leeds Intelligensia about a guy from around 1700 who stated he had 'a sumptious meal' in the 'Cross Swords' on Briggate ??think also of the 'the Buck ( Rheindeer ?? ) at 1 Kirkgate,at that time if you had stood at the Briggate / Kirkgate junction and looked towards the parish church the first pub on the left would have been the 'Buck' ( no 1 ) and a few doors down the next pub would have been the 'Crossed Shears' ( no 9 )as pubs then did not have large 'letterings' with their name on only painted signs sometimes very badly painted, things kind of fall into place,a badly painted sign of a Buck does look like a 'reindeer' ( I made this mistake myself a fews years ago in Wiltshire ), also a badly painted sign of 'Crossed Shears' would indeed look like 'crossed swords'just a thoughtJimbo