GAOLL

Steve Jones · Post by **Steve Jones** » Thu 17 Oct, 2013 11:14 am

polo wrote: Id love to know where these sources come from maybe the leeds guide do you know where i can read old leeds guides id be very intresed in them The guide I mentioned is available via google books.However the Internet Archive site has quite a few guides which are free to download.

polo · Post by **polo** » Fri 18 Oct, 2013 12:27 am

Righty the misspelling is certainly one option to consider but why mark it twice im not sure. Does anyone know what an x means on the map (no pun) is it an entrance like a passageway into a yard of sort? If so fish street may have been accessible from kirkgate.I've had a look at the 1850 map and there IS something marked opposite this entrance but it is too small for me to read.It definatley looks like is says "SITE OF THE" and this is a mixture of guesswork and wishful thinking "old prison".I can't use the enhanced zoom to see it clearly.My only three options now are1. anyone on here have access to old maps enhanced zoom?2. Get my butt down to library.3. Ask anyone if they can check an old census/directoryI'm guessing fish street was accessible from where yorkshire bank is now.

chemimike · Post by **chemimike** » Fri 18 Oct, 2013 1:37 am

Don't have access to enhanced view. they seem to be pushing continuous authority payments via Paypal, and am a bit dubious about that.However the X at the entrance means it is a gateway, but with a building above the gateway

polo · Post by **polo** » Fri 18 Oct, 2013 1:48 am

Thats what i thought thanks for that.So the prision would have been where the side of debenhams is now.As it was built in 1665 its not too suprising its not there 200 years later till the building of armley but i would have guessed during that time there would be some reference to people being locked up in leeds.Maybe the leeds intellgincer or mercury has a clue but that is pain staking work as im off to the library tomorrow ill see what i can find out.I wonder who the official authority for the prison was as if memory serves me the police force wasnt introduced till the mid 18oo's by robert peel i think.

Steve Jones · Post by **Steve Jones** » Fri 18 Oct, 2013 10:13 am

polo wrote: I wonder who the official authority for the prison was as if memory serves me the police force wasnt introduced till the mid 18oo's by robert peel i think. well local parish constable could lock people up ,but in this case i would have thought the town council would have appointed constables.

polo · Post by **polo** » Sun 20 Oct, 2013 3:28 am

This one is certainly a mystery to me my guess is its a mistake. As the locations do not match. Any input welcomed.

polo · Post by **polo** » Wed 23 Oct, 2013 12:07 am

Well i decided to have one last crack at this as i hate dead ends.So i decided to email the thoresby society and got this back if anyones intrestedDear Jamie,I've consulted David Thornton, author of the recent publication "Leeds - A historical Dictionary of People Places and Events" and he has reproduced the attached entry about the prison, which is more or less the sum of knowledge that we are aware of. The references to the former prison on Briggate and its replacement by the building on Kirkgate appear to come from Ralph Thoresby's "Ducatus".John Gilleghan, author of "Leeds - An A-Z of Local History" more or less endorses David Thornton's information, but says that the former prison on Briggate was by the Market Cross. He agrees that this was replaced in or shortly after 1655 by the Kirkgate prison, but says that this was itself replaced by another prison on Kirkgate in 1726. It is not known whether this is correct (Mr Gilleghan's information has sometimes been found to be unreliable). Both sources agree that these establishments were used only for short stay prisoners - long stay inmates were gaoled in Wakefield.The 1850 Ordnance Survey map marks "site of the Old Prison" on Kirkgate, almost immediately opposite Fish Street.This is about all the information we can find - I hope it is of some interest.Regards,John Townsend (Joint Librarian, Thoresby Society)---------- Forwarded message ----------From: D & J Thornton <d-thornton2@sky.com>Date: 21 October 2013 21:14Subject: Re: Fwd: Last resort Can you help me ?To: Library Thoresby Society <library.thoresby@gmail.com>JohnThe only information I have is what I put in my dictionary. We know there was a prison in Briggate by the end of the 16th century and of course Kirkstall had one c. 1200.Sorry I can’t be more helpful. Full dictionary entry is below.DavidA manorial jail existed in the town in BRIGGATE at the end of the sixteenth century. In 1655 it was demolished and a new one erected at the top of KIRKGATE opposite the MANORIAL OVEN. It contained five cells. Its windows were unglazed, there was no water laid on, no fireplace and no sewer. It was said, ‘In winter, the unhappy wretches who lodge in it must be perished with cold.’ In 1813 it was demolished when the COURTHOUSE, which contained thirteen cells for prisoners, was opened. Prisoners serving longer sentences were sent to the Wakefield House of Correction or to York. In 1847 the new borough jail at ARMLEY, popularly known as ARMLEY JAIL, was opened. A small prison cell also existed at KIRKSTALL ABBEY near the abbot’s lodging to cater for recalcitrant monks.

Caron · Post by **Caron** » Wed 23 Oct, 2013 1:18 am

Very helpful reply for you, Jamie. Pleased you heard from them.

Leodian · Post by **Leodian** » Wed 23 Oct, 2013 11:04 am

I like the "A small prison cell also existed at KIRKSTALL ABBEY near the abbot’s lodging to cater for recalcitrant monks" bit! Perhaps being in a prison they built (or at least tried to build) an escape tunnel. A tunnel and Kirkstall Abbey, now that sounds familiar!

Steve Jones · Post by **Steve Jones** » Wed 23 Oct, 2013 1:44 pm

Another possible explanation is that it is a deliberate error added to the map to catch out copyright enfringers,this is quite common as a way of proving whether a map has been pirated from an original.