HS2

Railways, trams, buses, etc.
Riponian
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Postby Riponian » Mon 23 Jun, 2014 4:26 pm

Now the "desperate to be re-elected" are proposing HS3, a high speed link across the Pennines. Well they can't have been paying much attention as the Standedge route is due to electrified and there have been plans to improve capacity by reopening the unused bores of the tunnel.
Comments I have noting are that there needs to be an improvment in capacity rather than speed - longer trains and increased frequency - or improving such as the Calder Valley (L&Y) route.
What has been missed is that Leeds - Sheffield is the slowest InterCity route in the country and possibly Europe. Sheffield had a faster route to Manchester through Woodhead, but it was closed in favour of the Hope Valley route.
Of course it's project that can be abandoned as a single JCB has yet to dig its first bucket load on HS2, but of course spending outside the M25 will be cut back.
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headingleylad
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Postby headingleylad » Mon 23 Jun, 2014 6:36 pm

This is from the same Government's Transport Department that is take train sets away from the Transpennine route and be give them to railways down south. What we want is more train sets up north to operate more services.

The Todmorden Curve was opened several weeks ago, but it can not be used because there are no train sets available to run it.

Madness!!
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Postby raveydavey » Mon 23 Jun, 2014 8:01 pm

Or, as a cynic might see it, laying the seed of HS2 only going to Manchester with the Yorkshire route quietly shunted off into a siding by the suggestion of a possibility of a faster service via the wrong side of the hill..?

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Postby majorhoundii » Mon 23 Jun, 2014 11:05 pm

raveydavey wrote:
Or, as a cynic might see it, laying the seed of HS2 only going to Manchester with the Yorkshire route quietly shunted off into a siding by the suggestion of a possibility of a faster service via the wrong side of the hill..?

Let them prove me wrong.

Well Osborne is the MP for Tatton, fairly adjacent to Manchester. Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't the stretch from Liverpool to Manchester already be electrified. I'm sure I saw an electric train in the vicinity of Eccles the other day

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Postby jonleeds » Mon 23 Jun, 2014 11:38 pm

From what I can gather this HS2 will only benefit rich businessmen and southerners who are spreading north with the availability of faster commuting solutions into 'the city' where they can do their six figure salary jobs. The price of tickets to use this high speed train will render it out of the price range of ordinary folks, plus it will probably mean that existing train services will have to raise prices to cover the loss of custom to HS2.

Plus property prices in Leeds will get even higher due to the influx of rich commuters from the south who will find the relatively cheap property prices attractive and a good investment for their property portfolio's. All to the disadvantage of existing Leeds residents who will find themselves furthur squeezed into the privately rented property sector as they wont be able to afford to get on the property ladder. Why does the government even allow this rampant spread of landlordism? Yet again people who have more money than sense are allowed to increase their wealth at the cost of the poorest people in society. It makes me wanna puke...

Of course there will be years of 'consulting' and embezzling of public funds just to work out what colour toilet roll should be used in the 1st class only HS2 trains. Its a High Speed 2 Gravy Train - ahh Bisto!
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Postby simong » Tue 24 Jun, 2014 3:19 pm

Presumably HS3 is going to be built from scratch by private companies (which are good) rather than National Rail (which is a public company and therefore bad), and it's going to lead to some very interesting route planning and not a few privations in building if the experience of the M62 is anything to go by. I can also see a bidding war happening between Leeds and Sheffield for the route, which, of course won't even see ground being broken for another 20 years.
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cnosni
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Postby cnosni » Tue 24 Jun, 2014 3:57 pm

simong wrote:
Presumably HS3 is going to be built from scratch by private companies (which are good) rather than National Rail (which is a public company and therefore bad), and it's going to lead to some very interesting route planning and not a few privations in building if the experience of the M62 is anything to go by. I can also see a bidding war happening between Leeds and Sheffield for the route, which, of course won't even see ground being broken for another 20 years.


It certainly wont be straightforward IF it happens.

I think it would be of benefit if its a brand new route,however i would struggle to see where such a brand new route would go. To reach those speeds will require straights and none too sharp curves.
and as tunnels have limited maximum speeds then i dont think we will be seeing HS1/HS2 speeds.

I do think its important that it should get support in the North, i think its a bit rich when we (in the north) complain about a lack of investment in transport infrastructure in favour of the south east and then feel the need to be negative when someting is proposed or planned.

As for HS2 i dont go with the notion that it will be for 1st class passengers alone, thats not the case in other countries such as Japan, Germany, Spain, France and the Peoples Republic of China.

I suppose it was a similar situation in the 19th century when teh railways were first built by private companies. There was a great deal of support and great deal of hostility to it.

Yet if it had not gone ahead then where would we be now?

The current rail network is unable to increase the number of paths to allow more trains to run.

Not having a brand new railway is not an option that we should contemplate, otherwise the current system will buckle and thats even with the new in cab (fixed signal free) signalling due to firts come on line between Kings Cross and Doncaster (originally scheduled for 2018 but looking more like 2020 now)

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Cardiarms
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Postby Cardiarms » Tue 24 Jun, 2014 9:42 pm

the Pennine bit may be slower but the East and West sections could be fast and up to Darlington.    

LS1
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Postby LS1 » Wed 25 Jun, 2014 9:22 am

I used to think that the HS2 would be a waste of money shaving off a short time on the journey to London.

An hour and a half from Leeds to London is great! It's 2hrs 20mins at the moment which means that if anyone has to go to London on a morning to get to work for 9/9.30am you'd have to be on the 6.30ish train realistically which for most people would mean getting up at 5.30 to get ready and into Leeds.

What's wrong with businessmen coming up to Leeds? We need investment here and we are living in a globalised world where communication has never been easier, the only hindrance has been the physical travel capabilities to get around the country.

Rail infrastructure is outdated at the moment to some extent so it can only get worse. Other countries have far higher taxes and far greater and more expensive civil engineering schemes which is why they get investment from abroad.

If it was left to some people in this country nothing would ever get done. We have some of the lowest tax rates in Europe, pay roughly the same for petrol give or take a few pence/ cents and also pay some of the lowest prices for gas and electricity.

simong
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Postby simong » Wed 25 Jun, 2014 1:29 pm

There is value in reducing the journey time to London, but my general feeling about HS2 is that it's designed to get people to London faster rather than to Leeds and that it won't affect inward investment into the area much at all. This country is still far too centralised on London at a time when communications make it less and less necessary.
I work for a small company that has staff in Leeds (me), Scotland and Australia, and which deals with clients all over the world and we only need communication by email and IM to work well. Before I started this job though, I was invited to apply for a job at Google, but they only allow people to work at their offices in London and Dublin, which I found rather counter-intuitive to their philosophy, but very much in keeping with their political position.
It's the same for many companies - they feel that they have to be in London to be successful. So yes, it could have an effect on house prices if people think they could put up with a 3-4 hour round trip every day to go to work, but I can also remember when the InterCity 225 reduced the journey time from Doncaster and Retford to London to about 90 minutes back in the early 90s and while there were certainly a few regular commuters, it didn't really take off as was expected and Doncaster has some of the cheapest housing in the country. It's also suggested that HS2's fares may be three times as much as the standard rail journey, which is currently around £120 from Leeds to London, which will be a barrier to regular travel, so I don't see it affecting the housing market here much, but I also don't see it improving the local economy on its own.

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