Not Leeds yet, but we're on the list...

[raveydavey]

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/b ... 168114.ece "The Government is threatening to withhold £1.5 billion of public    funding for public transport in Manchester unless the city agrees    to become a guinea pig for pay-as-you-drive road pricing. "Geoff Hoon, the Transport Secretary, said funding for new tram    lines, extra buses and trains would be cancelled unless a majority    of Greater Manchester's 1.8 million population voted "yes" in    next month's road pricing referendum." (from The Times)I know this particular story is about Manchester, but they've already tried similar tactics in Leeds which resulted in a change of leadership at Civic Hall It's scary the way Ministers of the Crown seem to think it's perfectly alright to bandy about threats in this way in an attempt to force their pet revenue raising schemes on the electorate. Did you know the "outer" charging zone of the Manchester scheme will start as soon as you leave the M60? Hardly the city centre, is it? In Leeds the (already proposed) outer charging zone starts at the Outer Ring Road, with a second higher charge within the Inner Ring Road. Fancy paying twice to get to work, or to go for a drink, or Elland Road? And don't think public transport will get cheaper. Profits have to be made and First aren't in the business of keeping fares down are they?

[chameleon]

raveydavey wrote: http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/b ... 168114.ece "The Government is threatening to withhold £1.5 billion of public    funding for public transport in Manchester unless the city agrees    to become a guinea pig for pay-as-you-drive road pricing. "Geoff Hoon, the Transport Secretary, said funding for new tram    lines, extra buses and trains would be cancelled unless a majority    of Greater Manchester's 1.8 million population voted "yes" in    next month's road pricing referendum." (from The Times)I know this particular story is about Manchester, but they've already tried similar tactics in Leeds which resulted in a change of leadership at Civic Hall It's scary the way Ministers of the Crown seem to think it's perfectly alright to bandy about threats in this way in an attempt to force their pet revenue raising schemes on the electorate. Did you know the "outer" charging zone of the Manchester scheme will start as soon as you leave the M60? Hardly the city centre, is it? In Leeds the (already proposed) outer charging zone starts at the Outer Ring Road, with a second higher charge within the Inner Ring Road. Fancy paying twice to get to work, or to go for a drink, or Elland Road? And don't think public transport will get cheaper. Profits have to be made and First aren't in the business of keeping fares down are they? Yes, talked about the possible charging zones earlier and suggested then the possibility of of people finding they were charged to go to a local supermarket egarded as 'out of town' the inevitable schoo; run, in some cases even dropping the kids at a bus stop for school, and even a trip to the Doctors! As for requiring a public majority vote to suit them, one has to ask what happened to democracy? I suspect Whitehall might find that the Democracy removes them from office with tactics like that!But dare I say, it's little less than we sadly come to expect these days.

[raveydavey]

chameleon wrote: Yes, talked about the possible charging zones earlier and suggested then the possibility of of people finding they were charged to go to a local supermarket egarded as 'out of town' the inevitable schoo; run, in some cases even dropping the kids at a bus stop for school, and even a trip to the Doctors! Indeed - I live just outside the proposed outer ring road charging zone. I'm less than a mile from Tesco at Seacroft and less than two miles from Sainsbury's at Colton or Asda at Killingbeck. However these stores would be within the congestion zone so I'd have to pay to shop there.The nearest supermarkets outside the zone would be Tesco at Garforth (going the long way round via Barwick) or Morrisons at Wetherby. Very environmentally friendly - instead of going a mile or two to do a "big shop", I'd end up doing a ten mile (or more) round trip to avoid being charged for going to the shop.....

[chameleon]

raveydavey wrote: chameleon wrote: Yes, talked about the possible charging zones earlier and suggested then the possibility of of people finding they were charged to go to a local supermarket egarded as 'out of town' the inevitable schoo; run, in some cases even dropping the kids at a bus stop for school, and even a trip to the Doctors! Indeed - I live just outside the proposed outer ring road charging zone. I'm less than a mile from Tesco at Seacroft and less than two miles from Sainsbury's at Colton or Asda at Killingbeck. However these stores would be within the congestion zone so I'd have to pay to shop there.The nearest supermarkets outside the zone would be Tesco at Garforth (going the long way round via Barwick) or Morrisons at Wetherby. Very environmentally friendly - instead of going a mile or two to do a "big shop", I'd end up doing a ten mile (or more) round trip to avoid being charged for going to the shop..... Well we know how often one-size-fits-all, don't we? And only a few people will be adversely affected, for the greater good of course!btw - think you must be my neighbour! .    

[cnosni]

raveydavey wrote: http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/b ... 168114.ece "The Government is threatening to withhold £1.5 billion of public    funding for public transport in Manchester unless the city agrees    to become a guinea pig for pay-as-you-drive road pricing. "Geoff Hoon, the Transport Secretary, said funding for new tram    lines, extra buses and trains would be cancelled unless a majority    of Greater Manchester's 1.8 million population voted "yes" in    next month's road pricing referendum." (from The Times)I know this particular story is about Manchester, but they've already tried similar tactics in Leeds which resulted in a change of leadership at Civic Hall It's scary the way Ministers of the Crown seem to think it's perfectly alright to bandy about threats in this way in an attempt to force their pet revenue raising schemes on the electorate. Did you know the "outer" charging zone of the Manchester scheme will start as soon as you leave the M60? Hardly the city centre, is it? In Leeds the (already proposed) outer charging zone starts at the Outer Ring Road, with a second higher charge within the Inner Ring Road. Fancy paying twice to get to work, or to go for a drink, or Elland Road? And don't think public transport will get cheaper. Profits have to be made and First aren't in the business of keeping fares down are they? Ok,im all for paying out as little as possible in life but the scheme in Manchester isnt as bad as it looks.The charging will only apply during rush hours,there will be no charging outside 0700-0930 and 1600-1830,this will mainly effect commuters into the area,so not so much the residents. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/engl ... 1683.stmIf this means less traffic in the centre,with appropriate funding for viable and effective mass public transport then so be it.If Leeds,as usual,is going to get Jack $hit for any majority government funded mass transport system then i would say that if the funding is availbale through such a scheme for a quality mass transport system then so be it,let those who can afford the charge pay,and those who cant use the hopefully excellent alternative public transport.We are going to have to bite the bullet here ladies and gentlemen.we know we need to reduce traffic on the roads of Leeds,and we need a quality mass transport system with which to do it,we cant have our cake and eat it im afraid.Manchester is once again being bold here,they can see the benefits of this scheme,and make money to boot,hence their plans to borrow £2bn on top of the £1bn on offer from TIF.If we miss this boat,then once again we will be moaning that we have got nowt.The mass transport system,however,must prove to be a more favourable alternative to paying the congestion charge,through frequency,punctuality,reliabilty,and rapidity than a driving into town,which i must confess,may not be the case.    

[chameleon]

Bottom line is Chris, those who have to travel at those times and can't necesarily find/use any PT there may be, will loose out and after the 'admin costs' and other expenses going to Peter Paul and Mary, precious little will actually go to Public Transport, much of which shouldn't expect to gain should it - being in the private sector?That said, the ammount of traffic on the road is problematic, but any system of control which is based on finance is discriminatory - those who can pay will continue to travel, those who can't and may well have a greater need, won't.

[cnosni]

chameleon wrote: Bottom line is Chris, those who have to travel at those times and can't necesarily find/use any PT there may be, will loose out and after the 'admin costs' and other expenses going to Peter Paul and Mary, precious little will actually go to Public Transport, much of which shouldn't expect to gain should it - being in the private sector?That said, the ammount of traffic on the road is problematic, but any system of control which is based on finance is discriminatory - those who can pay will continue to travel, those who can't and may well have a greater need, won't. True,but those who have a car and are in a postion of need would be wise to go to town outside of those hours.Im not discounting that the whole thing would be a money making exercise,but something must be done.Greater Manchester has been promised £1.5bn if they introduce the charge,they are considering lending £2.5bn on future C charge revenue,this is to go into the transport infrastructure.We need this investment,or well become clogged up,and eventually left behind,stagnating in our own lack of vision,and dare i say it nerve.£3.5bn invested into the C charge in Greater Manchester and the transport infrastructure will move them up a couple of gears further ahead then they all ready are from the impoverished Leeds transport system.The £2bn alone would have paid for supertram,in its orignal format,almost 3 times over.As i said,time to bite the bullet and realise we cant muddle along for decade after decade making no headway,popular or unpopular the C charge would be,the associated monies being talked about here will NEVER materialise otherwise.The council promised they would not introduce the C charge to Leeds unless we got supertram.Im sure that they would not be able to introduce the C charge without first having a firmly procured quality mass transport system,which as its beginning to look,be regulated by the local government bodies.

[Reginal Perrin]

Can someone direct me to the proposals for Leeds? I see posts about inner and outer congestion chrges but I've seen nothing. I have no problem with either if it is done right and only targeted at rush hour traffic. The example used by one poster regarding the Teascos, Asda and Sainsbury in and around the Cross Gates area is a case in point. That would be crazy. Much as it should not apply to Elland Road as game are in the evening or weekends.

[cnosni]

Reginal Perrin wrote: Can someone direct me to the proposals for Leeds? I see posts about inner and outer congestion chrges but I've seen nothing. I have no problem with either if it is done right and only targeted at rush hour traffic. The example used by one poster regarding the Teascos, Asda and Sainsbury in and around the Cross Gates area is a case in point. That would be crazy. Much as it should not apply to Elland Road as game are in the evening or weekends. Im not sure that anything is proposed for Leeds at the moment,certainly something was when the Supertram was still(pardon the pun)on track.Ravey was trying to say,on the first message,taht Greater Manchesters scheme and what is happening with it politically could well happen to Leeds in the future.Its all cojecture,and the mooted circumstances about Asda Sainsburys etc are hyperthetical at the moment.

[Reginal Perrin]

I can see the use for one inside the inner ring road and on certain main arterial roads if you pass through a couple of gateways (not just popping to the supermarket. I mean anyone "popping" to Sainsburys in Colton at rush hour must be nuts.It should only operate from 6:30am to 10:00am and 4pm to 6:30pm, there is no congestion outside of that and therefroe no need for it.