Rail Re-Openings - Dr Beeching

[cnosni]

Trojan wrote: cnosni wrote: Same drivers,same guards,same platform staff,same timetable.No ones changed except the people who take the profits home.National Express are real comedians,they are out of their depth.The first five months of their tenure has bee the most disrupted i have come across.They brought in their people(who lost them the other rail franchises incidentally) who couldnt cope when things went wrong.They disempowered those who had been running the show and made monumental cock ups.Luckily they did two things,firstly recognised the best people to deal with the situation are those in the know and secondly,they padded out extra time into the timetable with particular services to reduce the PPM.Trojan,please please dont think that the new operators have come in and waved a magic wwand,you have,on this instance,travelled when things are going well,which is most days.It seems that your other two GNER incidents were unfortunate coincidences.By the way,which one did you travel on from Wakey? We travelled down on the 8-36 and back on the 20-30. I know the ticket machines, trolleys etc all still bear the GNER colours and logo, and so does Wakefield Westgate, so you're probably right. But the fact remains that the last time we travelled with GNER (as detailed earlier) the GNER platform staff told us a downright lie. It was true that the delay had been caused by Midland Mainline, we bought our ticket from GNER and our claim was with them not Midland Mainline. She must have known that and yet she deliberately misled us, it was that that really annoyed us. Anyway least said soonest mended. The trip on Sunday went off without a hitch whether it was down to National Express or just the diligence of the staff. Nowt to do with national excuse.its down to us.They have come up with tin pot ideas that fail miserably.Despite having these shortcomings pointed out to them they decided that they know best,and when it went monumentally wrong they blamed everyone else.You find that frequent travellers have noticed a distinct shift in attitude.

[BLAKEY]

NORTHERN RAILI think that you would be hard pressed to find a more ir-responsible outfit than this anywhere.    I am angered and in despair nearly every time I travel with them, which is frequently. Firstly there is tne nationwide problem of insufficient rolling stock resulting in gross and dangerous overcrowding. Also it is generally true to say that the rolling stock is filthy, particularly externally - nearly every carriage window has brown "rust marks" around its edges and accumulated muck on the glass occasionally means that you can scarcely see out - in dry weather most certainly more than "one day's muck."These aspects pale into insignificance though when compared with the main widespread abominable practice. There can be no other organisation anywhere, be it a factory, office, shop or whatever, where the large proportion of bone idle and rude employees are allowed to throw the revenue away by the thousands of pounds a day (at least) and be allowed to get away with it without a Corporate whimper. They and, I'm sad to say, Arriva before them have been told of this many a time by passengers but with no improvement.                                                                                     It is routine on all lines into Leeds for conductors to simply retire into their private compartments and never attempt to take ANY fares at all between stations. While the Company money is safe at Leeds, where it is common to have to queue with passengers from other incoming trains for anything up to ten or twelve minutes to pay at the barrier, all those between intermediate points simply leave the trains grinning with glee after a free ride. I travelled about a year ago from South Elmsall, calling at Fitzwilliam, Sandal and Agbrigg, Wakefield and Outwood and the conductor never took a fare so dozens got off without paying. On my local line at Headingley hundreds a day are travelling free. Although there is a ticket office open at Horsforth many have now got wise to the fact that they can leap on the train and alight at Headingley or Burley Park for nowt without any bother, and the same on outward trips.For the conscientious conductors - there are a few - the job is made impossible by the ludicrous "steam age" new ticket machines. The previous machines were slow enough - about thirty seconds per ticket - but unbelievably this lot are worse than ever. Simply compare them with the splendid "Wayfarer" machines used on most buses - those machines are truly versatile in ticket ranges and very very quick.I have worked on public transport for forty four years, buses and coaches admittedly, but I've never come across a degree of rudeness and idleness like Northern Rail passengers have to endure, day in day out. As if this treatment on board the trains is not bad enough, worse is to come at the Leeds station barriers !! Its worth just having a few minutes observation there just out of interest. The standard practice when presenting your ticket is to be totally and silently ignored, or worse to be glowered at fiercely. If one of the frequent private conversations between two adjacent "ticket collectors" is in progress across the passageway your ticket is likely to be totally ignored while you are "shouted across" and left in no doubt what a perishing nuisance you are for interrupting. I wouldn't think of doing it myself, but I'm sure that if anyone presented a boot repair label it would go unnoticed.I can well imagine any reader thinking that this is a viscious and wild exaggeration, but if anything it is an understatement.New "London Underground" ticket barriers are shortly to come into service - I imagine that at least these will be less rude than the present human operatives - even though the arriving passengers will still queue up to pay because the conductors have not taken as many fares as they could have done, or any fares at all. Northern Rail even have the insolence in the publicity to suggest that the new barriers will reduce passenger fraud - its a pity they don't put more effort into eliminating widespread employee financial sabotage !!    

[rangieowner]

cnosni wrote: Trojan wrote: cnosni wrote: Same drivers,same guards,same platform staff,same timetable.No ones changed except the people who take the profits home.National Express are real comedians,they are out of their depth.The first five months of their tenure has bee the most disrupted i have come across.They brought in their people(who lost them the other rail franchises incidentally) who couldnt cope when things went wrong.They disempowered those who had been running the show and made monumental cock ups.Luckily they did two things,firstly recognised the best people to deal with the situation are those in the know and secondly,they padded out extra time into the timetable with particular services to reduce the PPM.Trojan,please please dont think that the new operators have come in and waved a magic wwand,you have,on this instance,travelled when things are going well,which is most days.It seems that your other two GNER incidents were unfortunate coincidences.By the way,which one did you travel on from Wakey? We travelled down on the 8-36 and back on the 20-30. I know the ticket machines, trolleys etc all still bear the GNER colours and logo, and so does Wakefield Westgate, so you're probably right. But the fact remains that the last time we travelled with GNER (as detailed earlier) the GNER platform staff told us a downright lie. It was true that the delay had been caused by Midland Mainline, we bought our ticket from GNER and our claim was with them not Midland Mainline. She must have known that and yet she deliberately misled us, it was that that really annoyed us. Anyway least said soonest mended. The trip on Sunday went off without a hitch whether it was down to National Express or just the diligence of the staff. Nowt to do with national excuse.its down to us.They have come up with tin pot ideas that fail miserably.Despite having these shortcomings pointed out to them they decided that they know best,and when it went monumentally wrong they blamed everyone else.You find that frequent travellers have noticed a distinct shift in attitude. National Excuse! Ha Ha Ha! I like it!!

[tyke bhoy]

BLAKEY wrote: I can well imagine any reader thinking that this is a viscious and wild exaggeration, but if anything it is an understatement.New "London Underground" ticket barriers are shortly to come into service - I imagine that at least these will be less rude than the present human operatives - even though the arriving passengers will still queue up to pay because the conductors have not taken as many fares as they could have done, or any fares at all. Northern Rail even have the insolence in the publicity to suggest that the new barriers will reduce passenger fraud - its a pity they don't put more effort into eliminating widespread employee financial sabotage !!     I agree its an understatement Blakey as a regular traveller from Leeds to Outwood.What I don't understand about the new ticket barriers is how those of us with valid travel passes that are not machine readable, i.e. Metro Cards, will get through the barriers given thst at "rush hours" I would imagine that's somewhere between 10-33% of us

[Reginal Perrin]

BLAKEY wrote: NORTHERN RAILI think that you would be hard pressed to find a more ir-responsible outfit than this anywhere.    I am angered and in despair nearly every time I travel with them, which is frequently. Firstly there is tne nationwide problem of insufficient rolling stock resulting in gross and dangerous overcrowding. Also it is generally true to say that the rolling stock is filthy, particularly externally - nearly every carriage window has brown "rust marks" around its edges and accumulated muck on the glass occasionally means that you can scarcely see out - in dry weather most certainly more than "one day's muck."These aspects pale into insignificance though when compared with the main widespread abominable practice. There can be no other organisation anywhere, be it a factory, office, shop or whatever, where the large proportion of bone idle and rude employees are allowed to throw the revenue away by the thousands of pounds a day (at least) and be allowed to get away with it without a Corporate whimper. They and, I'm sad to say, Arriva before them have been told of this many a time by passengers but with no improvement.                                                                                     It is routine on all lines into Leeds for conductors to simply retire into their private compartments and never attempt to take ANY fares at all between stations. While the Company money is safe at Leeds, where it is common to have to queue with passengers from other incoming trains for anything up to ten or twelve minutes to pay at the barrier, all those between intermediate points simply leave the trains grinning with glee after a free ride. I travelled about a year ago from South Elmsall, calling at Fitzwilliam, Sandal and Agbrigg, Wakefield and Outwood and the conductor never took a fare so dozens got off without paying. On my local line at Headingley hundreds a day are travelling free. Although there is a ticket office open at Horsforth many have now got wise to the fact that they can leap on the train and alight at Headingley or Burley Park for nowt without any bother, and the same on outward trips.For the conscientious conductors - there are a few - the job is made impossible by the ludicrous "steam age" new ticket machines. The previous machines were slow enough - about thirty seconds per ticket - but unbelievably this lot are worse than ever. Simply compare them with the splendid "Wayfarer" machines used on most buses - those machines are truly versatile in ticket ranges and very very quick.I have worked on public transport for forty four years, buses and coaches admittedly, but I've never come across a degree of rudeness and idleness like Northern Rail passengers have to endure, day in day out. As if this treatment on board the trains is not bad enough, worse is to come at the Leeds station barriers !! Its worth just having a few minutes observation there just out of interest. The standard practice when presenting your ticket is to be totally and silently ignored, or worse to be glowered at fiercely. If one of the frequent private conversations between two adjacent "ticket collectors" is in progress across the passageway your ticket is likely to be totally ignored while you are "shouted across" and left in no doubt what a perishing nuisance you are for interrupting. I wouldn't think of doing it myself, but I'm sure that if anyone presented a boot repair label it would go unnoticed.I can well imagine any reader thinking that this is a viscious and wild exaggeration, but if anything it is an understatement.New "London Underground" ticket barriers are shortly to come into service - I imagine that at least these will be less rude than the present human operatives - even though the arriving passengers will still queue up to pay because the conductors have not taken as many fares as they could have done, or any fares at all. Northern Rail even have the insolence in the publicity to suggest that the new barriers will reduce passenger fraud - its a pity they don't put more effort into eliminating widespread employee financial sabotage !!     To be fair i used to travel from Woodlesford into Leeds and the conductor had little chance to move between the passengers due to congestion and they regularly made themselves available to buy tickets from at Leeds. I'm not saying what you say is wrong but there was little they could do.Ticket machines at all stations and barriers at Leeds is the answer. No excuse to travel without tickets or need for a large queue at Leeds. There needs to be a few more entrances and exits at Leeds Station too, one down near the entrace tot he Mall (Wetherspoons) and on on to Station Approach to aleviate the bottle neck.

[tyke bhoy]

Reginal Perrin wrote: Ticket machines at all stations and barriers at Leeds is the answer. No excuse to travel without tickets or need for a large queue at Leeds. There needs to be a few more entrances and exits at Leeds Station too, one down near the entrace tot he Mall (Wetherspoons) and on on to Station Approach to aleviate the bottle neck. Ticket machines at all stations is unfortunately unlikely given that, at unmanned stations especially, they will be targets of both vandals and thieves.As previously mentioned they are installing barriers at Leeds for machine readable tickets. It is still not evident though how they are going to deal with people who don't have machine readable tickets like me with my zones 1, 2 & 3 Metro Pass and those with season tickets in walletsIn the morning rush hour they occasionally open the "goods entrance from platform 8 onto New Station street with a couple of ticket collectors standing guard. Unfortunately it is only occasionally and haphazard in occurence. Metro also claim to be arranging joint funding with LCC, Northern and other operators for a South Entrance to the station to serve Holbeck village and its surrounds. I can't quite see where it could go though as granary wharf has disappeared under yet more appartments and would probably require an upgrade/widening of the eastern crossing/walkway. I think an entrance near wetherspoons might work but as an exit it would only be of much use to those arriving at platforms 1 - 3.

[Loiner Paul]

I agree ticket machines at some of the unmanned stations would be a target for vandals, but why not despatched a number of the ticket collections/sellers from Leeds for the morning peak to some of the unmanned stations for a couple of hours. They did this for about 3-4 months about 2 years ago at East Garforth and it seemed to work, taking some of the pressure off the station at Leeds and the guards on the train. Only problem is that it leaves a lone ticket seller vunerable to attack for the money.Something has to give at Leeds. I saw an incident the other morning that could have been very tragic. So many people were arriving and getting off trains at once, trying to get up onto the bridge/walkway, using the escalators and steps. People wanting to get down onto the platforms were trying to get down the steps, and people on the bridge were buying tickets. All this created such a crush and jam that people on the escalators coming up from the platforms had nowhere to go and were just being pushed/piling into one another. Everyone shouting to get the escalators switched off, which eventually someone did.

[ads]

I think its a crying shame that given the failings of supertram etc, park & rides seem to have gone until the powers dream up another potential scheme that will drag on for years. Given all the development on Pontefract Lane, I would have thought that a park and ride site at the old wholesale market, accessing the railway on the sidings at Neville Hill just above it, with a drop off point at the old Marsh Lane sidings near the Kremlin would have been ideal. Most of the track bed etc is already there so it wouldn't have been the biggest task in the world, particularly given the amount wasted already in the failed supertram scheme, just a couple of new stations, and away you go. Maybe even give facility for some of the York / Selby trains to drop off in there and it would release some of the bottle neck at Leeds. As someone has highlighted before, another site crying out for a rail connection is the White Rose Centre, shut the under utilised Cottingley station and move it down the lines a bit, and actually get some trains to stop there unlike Cottingley!    

[cnosni]

Trojan wrote: cnosni wrote: Same drivers,same guards,same platform staff,same timetable.No ones changed except the people who take the profits home.National Express are real comedians,they are out of their depth.The first five months of their tenure has bee the most disrupted i have come across.They brought in their people(who lost them the other rail franchises incidentally) who couldnt cope when things went wrong.They disempowered those who had been running the show and made monumental cock ups.Luckily they did two things,firstly recognised the best people to deal with the situation are those in the know and secondly,they padded out extra time into the timetable with particular services to reduce the PPM.Trojan,please please dont think that the new operators have come in and waved a magic wwand,you have,on this instance,travelled when things are going well,which is most days.It seems that your other two GNER incidents were unfortunate coincidences.By the way,which one did you travel on from Wakey? We travelled down on the 8-36 and back on the 20-30. I know the ticket machines, trolleys etc all still bear the GNER colours and logo, and so does Wakefield Westgate, so you're probably right. But the fact remains that the last time we travelled with GNER (as detailed earlier) the GNER platform staff told us a downright lie. It was true that the delay had been caused by Midland Mainline, we bought our ticket from GNER and our claim was with them not Midland Mainline. She must have known that and yet she deliberately misled us, it was that that really annoyed us. Anyway least said soonest mended. The trip on Sunday went off without a hitch whether it was down to National Express or just the diligence of the staff. One person does not make a workforce,and in all probablity,te person is question still works for us.The point im trying to make is that all thats changed is who is trying to extract as much money as possible and then run off.This lot are not interested in customer service.They are interested in PPM,which is trying to keep delays below 9 minutes and 59 seconds.So to do this they have,and continue to do so,hold 3 north bound trains departing from Kings Cross (and so keeping the lines clear)for one incoming service to try and reduce its delay to below 10 minutes,and therefore save money.In effect,they are willing to delay passengers on 3 trains for the sake of one so that they can look better.GNER genuinely wanted to give the ultimate travel experience and also make money.This lot,well i think you will all find out eventually.

[BLAKEY]

Personally I have only one negative thig to say about GNER, who I found as a frequent user to be a splendid outfit. My gripe is about the treatment you receive at the little enquiry desk adjacent to platform 8 - my treatment there has varied between offhand and downright rude.Other than that though I greatly admired GNER for its efficiency, clean trains, and very smart and obliging on board staff. Being a self confessed traditionist (but NOT a stick in the mud) I shall never forgive the new lot for destroying the ultra dignified GNER livery - not only the main colours, but the classic fleet name graphics also. The new colour scheme smacks of the modern "zany marketing" virus which is everywhere in transport, but at least we must be thankful as it could have been far worse.Back to Northern Rail now - I've just come home from Leeds on the 1259 train - goodness knows when the exterior was last washed - the caked on grime was so bad that it prevented one from enjoying the artistic masterpices of local buildings and parks etc etc which "adorn" the sides of the coaches - dash it all the train is supposed to be a passenger conveyance and not a mobile tourist information brochure !!Must get this soap box refurbished - its getting really rickety with overuse. LOL