Tram / Train proposal

Reginal Perrin · Post by **Reginal Perrin** » Wed 19 Mar, 2008 12:28 pm

To link, wait for it.....Huddersfield and Sheffield.What do we do in Leeds to get anything that might improve our transport?"A new form of public transport known as the ‘tram-train' is to be trialled in Yorkshire.From 2010, conventional trains on the 37-mile Huddersfield, Barnsley and Sheffield line will be replaced by five tram-trains. Already used in Europe, tram-trains can run on both tram and train..."

headingleylad · Post by **headingleylad** » Wed 19 Mar, 2008 11:05 pm

Leeds has again been swindled out of a modern tramway, they said the tram train was going to run on the Leeds Harrogate Line with a branch to Leeds/Bradford Airport, but now has gone to Sheffield that has already got a tram system.This city of Leeds is the largest city in Europe that does not have a tram, underground or light rail system, what does this city have to do get a decent transport system other than the guided bus system that other cities around the world are getting rid of because they do not work?

Phill_d · Post by **Phill_d** » Thu 20 Mar, 2008 12:11 am

I absolutely agree here. Leeds is getting stuffed with it's transport funding. I've said it time and time again. We get the purple silly busses instead.. It' a disgrace! Even CROYDON has it's own tramway

Brandy · Post by **Brandy** » Thu 20 Mar, 2008 2:34 am

so leeds gets screwed again then eh?? what realy pi$$ed me off was watching them spend millions on that stupid guided busway thing up yorkroad, and one day i was walking up there past the asda with my(now late god bless him)dad and we sat watching them as they uncovered the old tram lines, and it just seem mad that they were trying to solve a problem that had been solved years ago!! Leeds had one of the best tram systems bar none, and they ripped it all up, but the way things are going what with congestion and pollution you mark my words it wont be long before trams run again along the same old routes as yesteryear

Reginal Perrin · Post by **Reginal Perrin** » Thu 20 Mar, 2008 11:19 am

Yeah, Sheffield already has a tram system and Huddersfield doesn't need one. Leeds is crying out for a solution to traffic congestion. It really needs massive investment to link the suburns to the city centre. A small loop which links the inner suburbs to the city with park and rides will not work as people will want to leave cars at home not park them in park and ride. The idea will be so that some housholds can get rid of one car not just use it less. Hasn't mManchester had tram/trains fro years? Newcastle even has it's own underground for God's sake. What is the per capital tax yield by comparison?

Post by **cnosni** » Thu 20 Mar, 2008 1:28 pm

Its not just Manchester etc,what about London.The improvements being carried out at Kings Cross station and underground is £774m,being paid for by the DFT, this is more than the original cost for the first full on supertram project for the CITY of Leeds.Our recently appointed minister for Yorkshire,Rosie Winterton,believes that large scale transport schemes are not the solution to the transport problems in Yorkshire,and that small schemes ,such as the wonderful guided bus scheme, are the answer.Rosie Winterton is also the Minister for Transport,a position she has held since June 2007.In October 2007,the Prime Minister announced that the government had earmarked £7.5Bn for the London Cross Rail link,a large scale transport solution if ive ever seen one.So clearly Rosie has changed her mind since October.Well you have to ask what do London ,Manchester,Liverpool and Newcastle have in common?They have an outsiders perception that a lot of investment is required that they alone cannot provide because they are viewed a s being areas of urban and economical depravation that require investment to provide improvements for the population in those areas.Leeds blows its "Success"trumpet a little too much perhaps.Are we seen as being successful and therefore not in need of such government funding?Perhaps we should play the poverty card that Manchester and inner London play at the necessary time to get the money.They too proclaim how well they are doing,but when needs be the old "investment needed for deprived inner city areas" chestnut comes out,and because these places (along with Liverpool and Newcastle) have this image as well then the Whitehall mandarins will chuck the money in their direction.Leeds is sold,and therefore viewed,as a centre for business,commerce,retail a self proclaimed "Capital of the North"Well we know there are areas in Leeds just as deprived as any other city,so rather than pushing the Tram or whatever as a means of reducing traffic into a successful city for commuters then perhaps we should be making out that its for the benefit of the not so well off to improve their lot.This is just not for transport isuues but also right across the board,we have missed out on £34m because we were deemed as a city to no longer recieve previosly paid government funding because we did not qualify, to the enormous sum of 0.04%.I think as a population we are also a little apathetic,for instance when Manchester were applying for funding for their 3rd extension to the tram system.It was knocked back in 2004 but a petition delivered to Downing street and a vigorous campaign by the local mps,council andmedia rsulted in approvalPhase 3 has now been split into two sections: Phase 3a will involve taking over the main line railway to Oldham and Rochdale station, as well as extensions to Droylsden and to Chorlton-cum-Hardy. In December 2004 the government announced that £520 million would be authorised for Phase 3. A first stage of Phase 3 was given the go ahead by the Department for Transport in July 2006, with a £300m funding gap expected to be met by a loan. Phase 3a will begin construction in 2008 and is hoped to become operational in 2011/12.So there you go,a combination of public action and tenacity by all those concerned got a result,for which by the way will actually provide less return per £1 spent than the Leeds supertram.One last point though,the Edinburgh tram system was okayed by the same chap who knocked back the Leeds supertram,a chap called Alistair Darling,who apart from being minister for transport at the time is also an MP for Edingburgh west.

Brandy · Post by **Brandy** » Thu 20 Mar, 2008 4:44 pm

Reginal Perrin wrote: Yeah, Sheffield already has a tram system and Huddersfield doesn't need one. Leeds is crying out for a solution to traffic congestion. It really needs massive investment to link the suburns to the city centre. A small loop which links the inner suburbs to the city with park and rides will not work as people will want to leave cars at home not park them in park and ride. The idea will be so that some housholds can get rid of one car not just use it less. Hasn't mManchester had tram/trains fro years? Newcastle even has it's own underground for God's sake. What is the per capital tax yield by comparison? I remember in the 80's visiting family in Newcastle and being introduced to the metro system up there, i remember you used to pay 5p for the bus fare and you asked for a trans-fare ticket so you could then use the same ticket for no extra cost to finish the rest of your journey on the metro, pure genius, and the ride was top notch as-well.we desperately need something similar here because them guided bus routes are a joke and that multi occupancy lane thing, is a load of old baloney as well ,and so is park and ride, why people are going to want to park there cars then use a sub-standard bus service is beyond me!! anyhow rant over!! ps/VOTE REGINAL PERRIN FOR PM

Reginal Perrin · Post by **Reginal Perrin** » Thu 20 Mar, 2008 5:29 pm

Brandy wrote: Reginal Perrin wrote: Yeah, Sheffield already has a tram system and Huddersfield doesn't need one. Leeds is crying out for a solution to traffic congestion. It really needs massive investment to link the suburns to the city centre. A small loop which links the inner suburbs to the city with park and rides will not work as people will want to leave cars at home not park them in park and ride. The idea will be so that some housholds can get rid of one car not just use it less. Hasn't mManchester had tram/trains fro years? Newcastle even has it's own underground for God's sake. What is the per capital tax yield by comparison? I remember in the 80's visiting family in Newcastle and being introduced to the metro system up there, i remember you used to pay 5p for the bus fare and you asked for a trans-fare ticket so you could then use the same ticket for no extra cost to finish the rest of your journey on the metro, pure genius, and the ride was top notch as-well.we desperately need something similar here because them guided bus routes are a joke and that multi occupancy lane thing, is a load of old baloney as well ,and so is park and ride, why people are going to want to park there cars then use a sub-standard bus service is beyond me!! anyhow rant over!! ps/VOTE REGINAL PERRIN FOR PM Thank you Brandy but can I defer to cnosni, he put it better and just as bitterly as I did. I agree with Park and ride though. You can do that now with normal trains, what benefit is that?We need trams that go to the suburbs, nothing less. The suburbs where city worker live as well, not politically sensitive regeneration areas which need tartin up. How about rewarding the people who actually create the wealth with some services not those who soak it up.

raveydavey · Post by **raveydavey** » Thu 20 Mar, 2008 9:02 pm

In my opinion, people seem to be missing the point here.Money for the NotSoSupertram was "promised" by Prescott to the old Labour administration that was running Leeds City Council, on condition that they agreed to "trial" roadcharging. Remember the gantries over the A61 South of Leeds and on Belle Isle Road with the traffic cameras?Well due to the unpopularity of that idea, plus other stuff, the good people of Leeds voted at the next local elections to throw the Labour Group out of office which eventually led to the current coalition in control.Shortly after that and with the plug pulled on the road charging trial, plus of course the vociferous lobbying by First bus against the scheme, our friends in Westminster pulled the plug on Supertram despite the millions that had already been spent on compulsory purchases and preliminary groundworks. To my mind this was an act of spite after the electorate had the cheek to vote for someone else. Recent articles in the YEP have shown that other similar stories can be told relating to other government funding in the last few years too.I was never a fan of the proposed Supertram. The route to the East of Leeds in particular was trying to be all things to all men and took such a meandering route it would have been quicker to walk to town (almost). Don't forget that the East Leeds route was initially planned to go down the middle of York Road until the bus companies persuaded the powers that be to build the pointless mis-guided bus lanes and scuppered that plan. The revised route made no sense at all for the original purpose of the tram.The route to the South was and remains the best option for combating congestion though, with ample room for a huge park and ride off the M1/M62/M621 junctions and much of the groundworks already in place.As for these "tram-trains", they are little more than basic trains with a fancy name. They will remain diesel operated (the line won't be electrified, with their only benefit being they can run on tram tracks as well as rail tracks - although I can't really see the need for this in the proposed application.