Tunnels from City Museum to Temple Newsam Mine

[Pocomoto]

In 1959 on a school trip with my old school Foxwood, I remember visiting the Leeds Museum in Park Row. I am sure the museum was where the Midland Bank (now HSBC) is. During the visit we went underground to look at a real (or fake) coal mine face. This is probably what Ozz saw behind the locked steel doors. We had to wear a miners hat and lamp and go on our hands and knees in semi darkness to crawl a few yards to the coal face. This was so realistic I retained a considerable respect for the job the miners did.I wonder if the coal face is still there or was it removed when the new buildings went up. Perhaps the mine is on the route of the mysterious tunnel between City Square and Civic Hall. What a sight it would have been to see the Lord Mayor crawling through a coal mine in his robes and dodging the lions.

[Aspidistra]

Well now, I remember my father telling me nearly 50 years ago that there was a tunnel ran from Kirkstall Abbey to the farm on the left hand side of the A58 just before the ring road. The tale was always post-scripted by "or so they say...." and "they say the tunnel is haunted by the ghosts of the monks who escaped Henry 8ths sacking of the monasteries". Allegedly, the farm was owned by Catholics at the time who risked life and limb to help monks escape persecution.My Dad grew up in Leeds - born 1915, and his family were Loiners from the mid-late 18th century, and apparently he'd heard it from his Dad and so on and so forth.I'd love to know if there was any truth in this - if it is true - it's one heck of a tunnel - especially for the time, but if anyone has heard similar tales or knows anything about these monks escape tunnels, I'd love to know...

[cnosni]

Its a funny one this.The Williamson tunnels in Liverpool had always been more than a rumour.My other half is a scouser and she says their existence was more than very strong in local folklore and that all the kids in Liverpool were aware of their existence because there were contemporary records of their consruction (in the press etc) and that they learned about it at school on trips to the far more substantial Liverpool museum.In Leeds these tales of tunnels from the museum to Temple Newsam and from Kirkstall Abbey to Wetherby road or town, depending on what you have heard, can surely only be rumour.The existance of the Liverpool tunnels were always there in the local cosncience(contemporary articles in the press etc) and the tunnels were just there waiting to be rediscovered.Dont forget they are excavating these tunnels,they have physical evidence.Yes i can understand a tunnel between the present day library and the town hall for the same reasons there are corridors below ground level between various parts of the LGI but one has to ask oneself WHY go to the expense,labour and time to build a tunnel from the Museum,which was on Park Lane to Temple Newsam and how come no one knows about it either officially or from someone who has /was involved with its construction/administration.Firstly if there is a tunnel from the Museum to Temple Newsam then you would have to ask why is one needed?I can think of no reason for this except to be able to move artefacts from there to a safe place during a time of crisis for instance during war and threat from invasion.No person of importance resided at the Museum so the collection would be the only reason one could speculate about.As the museum opened on Park Row 1819/1820 then any immediate threat to the collection ,at that tome,from foreign invader had been removed at this time by the successful conclusion of the Napoleonic wars in 1815 so the next real possible threat did not emerge until world war 2.There was never any serious threat of invasion in world War 1.As we know the biggest threat in world war 2 to any collection was from bombing, which the museum sustained, but the collection had remained there.Any invasion by Hitler was nipped in the bud by October 1940 with the cancellation of Operation Sealion and if the authorities were seriously worried about the collection between 1939 and 1940 then a cheaper and quicker way would be to move the collection to a safe place outside the city at their own convenience (See removal of British Library contents to Thorp Arch) not build a tunnel from Leeds,3 miles in length,to Temple Newsam and remove it at the last minute for safe keeping following invasion.The other question of course is where the other end is in Temple Newsam.I know of no such existance of a tunnel entrance/exit at Temple Newsam and im sure that even it was some state secret in years gone by its existance would have been known about by now.To have built one during the cold War(the height of which was after the museum closed on Park Row) would have been of no relevance because Temple Newsam would have been destroyed by any nuclear attack on Leeds and as for the second world war why,given the Germans track record for occupying stately homes in the countries they had conquered to use as headquarters,would you try and hide a collection of antiquities in another repository of important artefacts knowing full well that one German General or another and his staff would use it as their private residence/HQAs for the Kirkstall tunnel i have also heard this from my mum born 1932.Although the route she said she was told was from Kirkstall Abbey to Quarry Hill,which incidentally is where she lived in the 1930s(coincidence or handed down rumour on the flats?), and not Wetherby RoadNow once again you have to ask yourself why build a tunnel from Kirkstall Abbey to either Quarry Hill or Wetherby road in the years between the 12th and 16th century when Kirkstall Abbey was in existance.The answer is there is no reason.When Kirkstall Abbey was built there was no Quarry Hill area as we know it, just a hill with some old embankments on it.The boundaries of Leeds, at this time in the 12th century, were restricted around the parish church and up Kirkgate to what is now Vicar Lane so there were no buildings of substance on Quarry Hill during that time.Quarry Hill was at best,described by Ralph Thoresby the first historian of Leeds, some 600 years after the founding of Kirksatll Abbey, in his book Ducatus Leodiensis; or the Topography of the antient and populous Town and Parish of Leedes and parts adjacent in the West Riding of the County of York, 1715 (sic)as having possible earthworks from the Romano British/Saxon era.As for a tunnel to Wetherby road ,which was even further than Quarry Hill ,and the need for monks to avoid the troops of HenryVIII then you would wonder how much notice the monastry had that Henry VIII and his troops were going to come and take not only theirs but every other monastic orders land, farms,industries and possessions and equate that to how long it would take to build such a tunnel. Given the technology in those days it would have been years to complete such an undertaking and as we know they had no such warning or they would have spirited away most, if not all of their wealth, to the branches of their orders on the continent or hidden them away in one way or another rather than diverting the resources of the Monastrys Lay brothers to build a tunnel to wetherby road.TThe idea though of the farm being a haven for the monks or anyone who was a Catholic sympatihser following the dissolution of the monastries and the decades of subsequent religious upheaval may probably have some truth.Most all family folklore has some kernel of truth in it,You may well say im a cold hearted fact merchant.I am far from this .I am a passionate Loiner and am interested in history and always will be.But i am also a believer in the truth and that sometimes you have to accept that ones own deeply held beliefs do not stand up to scrutiny and evidence.If there was anything contrary to what i have written above then i would read and research the evidence presented and either hold my hands up and say "Got Me"or prove the opposite.Isnt that what this site is for?I

[Aspidistra]

Ah! You make valid and interesting points cnosni! Logic frequently got the better of me on the Kirkstall/Wetherby Road tunnel possibility; though I have to admit that overall the rather romanticised idea of such a thing existing appeals immensely.I do wonder if the Wetherby Road farm, as you suggest, was used as a refuge for escaping monks, and that the escape route was given some sort of name - I'm thinking here of the "Underground train" that Harriet Tubman ran in the states to assist escaping slaves get to the north. As far as I know, actual tunnels were not used in this "underground train", it was more an expression of the spirit of the thing - perhaps the escape route of the monks was given a similar name and over the years it has become mythologised into a "tunnel". Or, perchance a much smaller tunnel helped the monks get out, say to the next field in the first instance, from whence they scarpered to the Wetherby Road farm.... and over the years the tunnel has been extended by the telling of the tale.... Equally, we know for a fact of all the existing and yet elaborate and improbable priest holes and hidey holes and tunnels within these old houses which were used to hide Catholics, particularly clergy, during the persecution - and presumably for all sorts of other hanky panky.Still, I never go past that farm without wondering.... the very fact that there are all these myths surrounding these things is fascinating in itself to me.

[Phill_d]

Well said there csnosi. I think you can dispel most of these rumours by just stopping a minute & saying. Is this REALLY plausible? When you think about the complexities of tunnel construction, They aren't built so deep underground yet none have ever been found while excavating for new buildings. Although saying that i am interested that the farm has been mentioned (Cobble hall) i believe it is. I doubt for a minute the tunnel to Kirkstall abbey exists although i have seen a few little interesting things around there that the Leeds gentlemans exploration society will be having a good look at when time permits!

[raveydavey]

I think the use of the word "underground" is interesting and may well be the cause of such confusion.Certainly the farm off Wetherby Road isn't far at all from the area known as Monkswood, where there is proof that monks were active in the area at the time of the monasteries. It's also not a million miles from the "Monkey Bridge" which is discussed on the names thread, which again points to monks being at large in the general area.

[Reginal Perrin]

Phill_d wrote: Well said there csnosi. I think you can dispel most of these rumours by just stopping a minute & saying. Is this REALLY plausible? When you think about the complexities of tunnel construction, They aren't built so deep underground yet none have ever been found while excavating for new buildings. Although saying that i am interested that the farm has been mentioned (Cobble hall) i believe it is. I doubt for a minute the tunnel to Kirkstall abbey exists although i have seen a few little interesting things around there that the Leeds gentlemans exploration society will be having a good look at when time permits! There is no way that a tunnel built between the museum and Tempie would have been a secret. The engineering feat to build such a tunnel would have been considerable and it is ludicrous to even think it could have been done covertly.Think about what lies in between, several hundred yards of built up city centre, railway lines, the River Aire, not to mention the amount of work since which would have uncovered such a tunnel.Nah, not plausible IMHO.To the original poster, this is not intended to ridicule you.

[rikj]

Well, hope this pic brings back memories for some of the posters who visited here originally. So, you weren't imaging things ozz and here's the coal mine in the City Museum.After the bombing in the war much time was spent recovering atrefacts from the rubble. The curator at the time, Mr Ricketts, commented that "I never thought we'd have a 'dig' inside our museum."In the post war years of 1947-57 the curator was Dr David Owen who set about revitalising the museum. After the rubble had been cleared the original vaulted cellars of the museum remained undamaged. Dr Owen converted the cellars into a reconstruction of a coal mine, to highlight the local mining industry.Opened in 1948 by Hugh Gaitskill, Minister of Fuel and Power, it had coal faces, conveyors, cage and coal cutters.Another illustration that there is always some truth in these tales!Hope this is of interest.

[rangieowner]

Quarry Hill, Wetherby Road, Abbey Pub well that makes 4 tunnels i've heard of now! Cos i was told as a kid that there was a tunnel from the Abbey to a farm on Scotland Lane between Horsforth and near where the airport is now..!    Yeah Right!

[farbank]

My first job on leaving school [1950], was for Primrose Hill Collieries.My maternal grandfather worked at Waterloo pit [Temple Newsam], for almost 50yrs.As Waterloo pit was Primrose No.4; Mount Pleasant [Twixt Garforth & Swillington], Primrose No.3; Flateley Beck [Swillington], Primrose No.2 , and Allerton Bywater Primrose No.1. I think I can categorically state that the only tunnel to connect Waterloo pit with anywhere, was the small emergency escape gate [tunnel], linking it with Mount Pleasant.This pit in turn was well connected underground by the haulage road, to Flateley Beck. So in reality, one could get from Temple Newsam pit ,underground, to at least Swillington. Not ever having worked at Allerton, and only 2wks. before transfer, at Flateley Beck. I would imagine the likelihood of a similar 'escape' route connected both these pits. So Temple Newsam to Allerton Bywater.!