Iron works

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rikj
PostsCOLON 384
JoinedCOLON Tue 20 Feb, 2007 4:59 pm

Re: Iron works

Postby rikj » Tue 09 Feb, 2016 11:50 pm

The Parksider wroteColon
Was it picked out at the same time the coal was mined? There is so much on coal and it's extraction and so little on the ironstone that it's quite fascinating.......


Have a read of this:

http://www.namho.org/research/bibliography/IRON_bibliography.pdf

In Leeds we aren't that far from Cleveland where there are some of the best ironstone mining remains around.
Leodian
PostsCOLON 5847
JoinedCOLON Thu 10 Jun, 2010 8:03 am

Re: Iron works

Postby Leodian » Wed 10 Feb, 2016 12:24 am

Iron stained springs are commonly seen in much of Leeds so I assume they are related to the high iron content of some local rocks. Even some of the small springs in Adel Woods run iron stained into Adel Beck and I've seen iron stained spring waters in Roundhay Gorge.

When I was a child in the early to mid 1950s with other lads I used to go by a very active and heavily iron stained spring by the side of a track leading towards Templenewsam from off Halton Moor Avenue. We always used to have a drink which though tasting very irony was always cool. We used to try to block the spring but never even managed to slow the flow down! There was also a less obvious but very active iron spring in a field on the right (walking towards Templenewsam). I wonder if these springs are still active?
A rainbow is a ribbon that Nature puts on when she washes her hair.
grumpytramp
PostsCOLON 331
JoinedCOLON Mon 24 Sep, 2007 6:28 pm

Re: Iron works

Postby grumpytramp » Wed 10 Feb, 2016 12:59 am

Leodian, the orange stain is known as ochre and is the result of simple chemistry. Where groundwater emerges with a soluble iron content it oxidises in contact with oxygen, becomes insoluble and is deposited as the "orange gunge"

These kind of discharges are mostly associated with abandoned mine drainage systems, that are discharging at the surface. To save typing time I will quote from one of my posts from an age ago [2009!]

It is the consequence of a phenomenon known as acid mine drainage (AMD) and is affect can be devastating of the freshwater environment. In the simplest terms as mines extended below the water table they pumped water out of the mine to allow the mining operation to continue unimpeded. This has an important impact in coal mines as one of the minerals that is routinely uncovered is iron pyrites in coal, shales and fireclay.

Now in contact with the air it will begin to oxidise, as this reaction continues it generates heat and further accelerates the reaction (leading to the ultimate consequence if there is sufficient oxygen, heat and coal in spontaneous combustion). In oxidising the Iron Pyrites is converted to Iron (Fe2) Sulphate which is solvent in water. When the mines are abandoned and the water table rebounds to its natural level, that water dissolves the Iron Sulphide in the first instance Iron (Fe2) Sulphate and then Iron (Fe3) Sulphate. The reaction from Sulphide to Sulphate makes the water become acidic.

It is when the water rebounds and there is a drainage route to the surface such as sough, tunnel, shaft etc and the water finds itself at the surface the real problems begin.

Acidic water emerges at the surface with consequential damage on the freshwater habitat, then as it becomes more dilute downstream, the pH increases and the water is in contact with oxygen the previously soluble Iron (Fe3) Sulphate oxidises again and forms a precipitate of Iron Hydroxide. That is the horrible orange gunge.

The process can occur naturally too and there a host of micro-organisms and bugs that thrive in that environment and will act as catalyst themselves.


What I had not mentioned was that process often occurs close to geological faults. Most faults will act as a drainage conduits for groundwater. The groundwater often holds entrapped oxygen which can react, in a similar but slower fashion to the AMD process, when in contact with strata that contains Iron Pyrites (such as coal, shale, ironstone, fireclays and mudstones).

I suspect that many of the ancient Spas (wells) in East Leeds are probably groundwater arisings closely associated with either geological faults or water draining from ancient mine workings.

The good news is that drinking from your spring would have done you no harm .......... a can of the local national drink here [Iron Bru] probably contains more iron, is more acidic and will definitely have an infinitely higher sugar content :-)

I would be interested if you could pin-point your spring and I will see if there is an obvious geological/mining source for the ochre?
The Parksider
PostsCOLON 1546
JoinedCOLON Sat 10 Nov, 2007 3:55 am

Re: Iron works

Postby The Parksider » Wed 10 Feb, 2016 9:49 am

grumpytramp wroteColon
The Parksider wroteColon

My suspicion is that the Iron Hills was once a focal point for processing ironstone, as the Black Band is probably far too deep for bell-pit workings over most of the enclosure identified in mapping as the Iron Hills.



Thank you ever so much for your superb explanation of ironstone mining & smelting.

I'm trying to put together a laymans guide to mining in Leeds, even so I want to be able to explain things without saying anything too presumptious.

The assumption that a large pile of iron smelting slag along the Wyke Beck meant the Iron hills above was the site of the Ore being mined there is a great example of putting 2 & 2 together and coming up with 5.

However if that assumption is incorrect then where would that ore have come from?

warringtonrhino
PostsCOLON 288
JoinedCOLON Sat 18 Feb, 2012 2:31 pm

Re: Iron works

Postby warringtonrhino » Wed 10 Feb, 2016 9:55 am

[quote="grumpytramp"][quote="The Parksider"]

With the onset of the Industrial Revolution replacing artisan mining/smelting, the Black Band Ironstone of the Leeds and Bradford area use was primarily for production of very high quality wrought iron, which was still in substantive demand well into the 20th Century (particularly during the Great War). The Wrought Iron produced in Leeds and Bradford from the Black Band Ironstone and Better Bed coal had a world class reputation for strength and quality (as a result I believe of their relatively low phosphorous and sulphur contents respectively, and the particularly fine grained iron produced). The explosion in output in Leeds of the Better Bed particularly in the late 1850's reflects demand and it's decline reflects the exhaustion of economically exploitable reserves.

While looking through the archives, I also found this plan. I apologize for the quality, it was very dirty, probably used down in the workings? and because it is very large I had to photograph it in sections.
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The Parksider
PostsCOLON 1546
JoinedCOLON Sat 10 Nov, 2007 3:55 am

Re: Iron works

Postby The Parksider » Wed 10 Feb, 2016 9:59 am

rikj wroteColon
The Parksider wroteColon
Was it picked out at the same time the coal was mined? There is so much on coal and it's extraction and so little on the ironstone that it's quite fascinating.......


Have a read of this:

http://www.namho.org/research/bibliography/IRON_bibliography.pdf

In Leeds we aren't that far from Cleveland where there are some of the best ironstone mining remains around.



Rik - knockout reference!! A massive thank you.

As a kid I learnt about the Rosedale Mines, and only in recent years have I been to Cleveland and visited the museum and mine there. Much reccomended!

To be able to study this in a Leeds context is great.........

Thanks again
warringtonrhino
PostsCOLON 288
JoinedCOLON Sat 18 Feb, 2012 2:31 pm

Re: Iron works

Postby warringtonrhino » Wed 10 Feb, 2016 10:01 am

here are the top ones, the files were too large to attach all 6
as you can see the workings were under the current Killingbeck Asda and Seacroft Hospital
I have had to reduce the image size to make them small enough for our set up, if anyone wants the full size files they can be emailed.
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The Parksider
PostsCOLON 1546
JoinedCOLON Sat 10 Nov, 2007 3:55 am

Re: Iron works

Postby The Parksider » Wed 10 Feb, 2016 10:31 am

warringtonrhino wroteColonhere are the top ones, the files were too large to attach all 6
as you can see the workings were under the current Killingbeck Asda and Seacroft Hospital
I have had to reduce the image size to make them small enough for our set up, if anyone wants the full size files they can be emailed.


Deeply indebted to you WR for your kind offerings as well. I'll try to download those maps and see if they can zoom in.

To locate the three shafts I've gone to the 1846 OS map. At the White Horse pub across York Road are shafts, I assume include the White Horse shaft. Just NE of these alongside Harehills Lane is what I presume is the Harehills Lane shaft - how DO I possess such genius to work that out :lol:

Down in Killingbeck is a sandstone quarry but a single shaft just near making the three nicely locatable.

Now on the Wyke Beck below Killingbeck and towards the Ross Pit there is a feature "COAL SEEN" which seems to relate to an outcrop on the banks of the beck? It says

coal
clay
spavin, shale & Ironstone 4'9"
coal
underclay

I only half dare interpret that as the constituents and depth of the strata at that point?

But how did they know? Did they dig a trial shaft alongside a beck?

Delightfully the combining of shale & ironstone gels beautifully with GT's explanation of the occurence.

"Spavin" I think is some sort of silicaceous mudstone, but like "Calliard" a fine grained sandstone, dictionaries no longer carry these words from the days I suppose it was important to differentiate between varieties of extractive materials.

But back to the "Ironhills" dilemma? If they didn't dig the iron there was it dug from outcrops along the beck?

The Parksider
PostsCOLON 1546
JoinedCOLON Sat 10 Nov, 2007 3:55 am

Re: Iron works

Postby The Parksider » Wed 10 Feb, 2016 10:54 am

grumpytramp wroteColon
With the onset of the Industrial Revolution replacing artisan mining/smelting, the Black Band Ironstone of the Leeds and Bradford area use was primarily for production of very high quality wrought iron



Again on the 1847 OS maps just north side of the Leeds-Selby line as it emerges from Richmond Hill Tunnel is a "Black Bed Ironstone" analysis of the strata (or is it?)

It reflects on 15 alternative layers of black shale and ironstone - was this the surveyors reflecting on what minerals were observed during the tunnelling?

Just north of that along York Road back down from the White Horse the strata is listed as alternating layers of "coal" and "Parting". (here's another word that I don't understand that has probably left all but the geologists vocabulary - anyone?)

Is this the strata noted from shafts on south accommodation road??

I assume these surveys are at different depths. If the black bed ironstone is at tunnel level in Leeds could it not be easily reached eastwards in the depth of the Wyke Beck Valley from bell pits, as opposed to up on the hill at seacroft "ironhills"???
Leodian
PostsCOLON 5847
JoinedCOLON Thu 10 Jun, 2010 8:03 am

Re: Iron works

Postby Leodian » Wed 10 Feb, 2016 2:24 pm

grumpytramp wroteColonLeodian, the orange stain is known as ochre and is the result of simple chemistry. Where groundwater emerges with a soluble iron content it oxidises in contact with oxygen, becomes insoluble and is deposited as the "orange gunge"

These kind of discharges are mostly associated with abandoned mine drainage systems, that are discharging at the surface. To save typing time I will quote from one of my posts from an age ago [2009!]

It is the consequence of a phenomenon known as acid mine drainage (AMD) and is affect can be devastating of the freshwater environment. In the simplest terms as mines extended below the water table they pumped water out of the mine to allow the mining operation to continue unimpeded. This has an important impact in coal mines as one of the minerals that is routinely uncovered is iron pyrites in coal, shales and fireclay.

Now in contact with the air it will begin to oxidise, as this reaction continues it generates heat and further accelerates the reaction (leading to the ultimate consequence if there is sufficient oxygen, heat and coal in spontaneous combustion). In oxidising the Iron Pyrites is converted to Iron (Fe2) Sulphate which is solvent in water. When the mines are abandoned and the water table rebounds to its natural level, that water dissolves the Iron Sulphide in the first instance Iron (Fe2) Sulphate and then Iron (Fe3) Sulphate. The reaction from Sulphide to Sulphate makes the water become acidic.

It is when the water rebounds and there is a drainage route to the surface such as sough, tunnel, shaft etc and the water finds itself at the surface the real problems begin.

Acidic water emerges at the surface with consequential damage on the freshwater habitat, then as it becomes more dilute downstream, the pH increases and the water is in contact with oxygen the previously soluble Iron (Fe3) Sulphate oxidises again and forms a precipitate of Iron Hydroxide. That is the horrible orange gunge.

The process can occur naturally too and there a host of micro-organisms and bugs that thrive in that environment and will act as catalyst themselves.


What I had not mentioned was that process often occurs close to geological faults. Most faults will act as a drainage conduits for groundwater. The groundwater often holds entrapped oxygen which can react, in a similar but slower fashion to the AMD process, when in contact with strata that contains Iron Pyrites (such as coal, shale, ironstone, fireclays and mudstones).

I suspect that many of the ancient Spas (wells) in East Leeds are probably groundwater arisings closely associated with either geological faults or water draining from ancient mine workings.

The good news is that drinking from your spring would have done you no harm .......... a can of the local national drink here [Iron Bru] probably contains more iron, is more acidic and will definitely have an infinitely higher sugar content :-)

I would be interested if you could pin-point your spring and I will see if there is an obvious geological/mining source for the ochre?


Thanks for your very informative help grumpytramp :).

I have attached a section of a map from Google Maps that shows where the iron springs were (and probably still are). They are the 2 'pools' in about the centre of the map. That by the track was the most active iron spring and its water then ran to Wyke Beck. The nearby larger 'pool' will be that where the less strong iron spring ran out. I don't recall either having a 'pool' then, but it would have been getting onto 60 years since I was last there! From the map I assume that Wyke Beck is culverted downstream from near the track.
SiteOfOldIronSprings.jpg
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PS. This is a continually superb thread. Thanks to all for the time and effort they must have put in :).
A rainbow is a ribbon that Nature puts on when she washes her hair.

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