Iron works

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grumpytramp
PostsCOLON 331
JoinedCOLON Mon 24 Sep, 2007 6:28 pm

Re: Iron works

Postby grumpytramp » Wed 10 Feb, 2016 9:36 pm

warringtonrhino wroteColon While looking through the archives, I also found this plan. I apologize for the quality, it was very dirty, probably used down in the workings? and because it is very large I had to photograph it in sections.


I have PM you ;)

Cracking document.

This is a working record, kept probably to reconcile royalty payments due to the mineral owners (this is in the days before state ownership of common minerals such as coal, iron or fireclay) by the Garside's.

When the York Road Coal & Iron Co. abandoned Killingbeck Colliery in 1885 they had a statutory obligation to submit abandonment plans for each seam worked at the colliery detailing the extent of the workings. These were submitted to the Home Office and formed an archive of abandonment plans, aimed at avoiding unnecessary risk of collieries encountering flooding workings (this followed a series of flooding incidents known as inrushes resulting in disastrous loss of lives). Over the years these abandonment plans became more and more detailed, as a consequence of the lessons learnt from one mining disaster after another. Of relevance locally was the catostrophic inrush incident at Lofthouse Colliery when a face encountered flooded old workings and the subsequent inrush resulted in the loss of seven lives. This incident resulted in an exhaustive trawl of all known sources of records by the NCB to ensure that all possible records were researched and used minimise the risk to colliers. These records are now held by the Coal Authority and are all in the public domain (sadly for a fee).

Unfortunately as good as these records are, the sacrifice made by the four colliers killed at the Gleision Colliery in South Wales on 15th September 2011 demonstrated the scale of risk that remains for all working below ground from flooded old workings!

The plans may be dirty but it never went below ground!

Colliery surveyors always completed their surveys using notebooks to record their surveys using mining dials (a simple robust theodolite to set-out angles and to record the angle of workings from a known point), surveyors levels to measure difference in height and precisely measured chains to measure distance. All this information was transcribed and calculated to add details to record plans.

The grime on the plan is the impact of years of the dust in the surveyors office, grime worn in by many surveyors elbows and general wear and tear!
grumpytramp
PostsCOLON 331
JoinedCOLON Mon 24 Sep, 2007 6:28 pm

Re: Iron works

Postby grumpytramp » Wed 10 Feb, 2016 9:55 pm

The obvious thing that strikes me from the detail I can see, is it looks like the majority of the workings in the Black Band were pillar and bord workings (look closely and you can see in places records of series of parallel and perpendicular roads).

Effectively colliers drove a series of parallel roads winning coal and ironstone. These were then connected by perpendicular roads again winning the coal and ironstone, leaving a substantial pillar of coal/ironstone to support the workings.

From the posted photos it looks like that once the pillar and bord network was complete, progressively supporting pillars were robbed and the roof allowed to collapse to form a waste. In general I expect the mining process was as posted above (undercut mining the coal and then pull down the iron rich overlying). I cannot make out the detail but some of the roads will have been extended (up or down) and have pillars retained in the side to help form main trunk haulage routes back to pit bottom.

Another notable feature is the pillars left below specific properties (to avoid subsidence) and the pillars left intact around the shafts at Killingbeck Colliery (to preserve the shaft collar from subsidence related distortion)
grumpytramp
PostsCOLON 331
JoinedCOLON Mon 24 Sep, 2007 6:28 pm

Re: Iron works

Postby grumpytramp » Wed 10 Feb, 2016 10:13 pm

The Parksider wroteColonJust north of that along York Road back down from the White Horse the strata is listed as alternating layers of "coal" and "Parting". (here's another word that I don't understand that has probably left all but the geologists vocabulary - anyone?)

Is this the strata noted from shafts on south accommodation road??

I assume these surveys are at different depths. If the black bed ironstone is at tunnel level in Leeds could it not be easily reached eastwards in the depth of the Wyke Beck Valley from bell pits, as opposed to up on the hill at seacroft "ironhills"???


Parkie, running out of time tonight so quickly in brief capturing at least a few of your questions!

The detail shown on the first series OS sheet are a combination of data obtained from the operating collieries (depths to seam and their thickness in shafts, recorded underground faulting in coal seams etc) and field geologist observations (the records at the Richmond Hill Tunnel and Wyke Beck you refer to are almost certainly physical exposures at the surface at the related exposure in the cutting adjacent to the tunnel and in the eroded east bank respectively).

Parting is a common mining term for a band of dirt (non-coal typically shale, mudstone, fireclay etc between beds of coal)

If you trace the outcrop of any coal seam in East Leeds it doesn't follow a straight or even a curved line. Geological faults change the horizontal and vertical alignment of coal seams. The bottom line is NE Leeds there are more than enough faults to ensure that the outcrop of the Black Band outcrops bounces all over including around the Wyke Beck valley floor [I will address this in detail in due course]
The Parksider
PostsCOLON 1546
JoinedCOLON Sat 10 Nov, 2007 3:55 am

Re: Iron works

Postby The Parksider » Thu 11 Feb, 2016 2:06 pm

grumpytramp wroteColon
The Parksider wroteColonJust north of that along York Road back down from the White Horse the strata is listed as alternating layers of "coal" and "Parting". (here's another word that I don't understand that has probably left all but the geologists vocabulary - anyone?)

Is this the strata noted from shafts on south accommodation road??

I assume these surveys are at different depths. If the black bed ironstone is at tunnel level in Leeds could it not be easily reached eastwards in the depth of the Wyke Beck Valley from bell pits, as opposed to up on the hill at seacroft "ironhills"???


Parkie, running out of time tonight so quickly in brief capturing at least a few of your questions!

The detail shown on the first series OS sheet are a combination of data obtained from the operating collieries (depths to seam and their thickness in shafts, recorded underground faulting in coal seams etc) and field geologist observations (the records at the Richmond Hill Tunnel and Wyke Beck you refer to are almost certainly physical exposures at the surface at the related exposure in the cutting adjacent to the tunnel and in the eroded east bank respectively).

Parting is a common mining term for a band of dirt (non-coal typically shale, mudstone, fireclay etc between beds of coal)

If you trace the outcrop of any coal seam in East Leeds it doesn't follow a straight or even a curved line. Geological faults change the horizontal and vertical alignment of coal seams. The bottom line is NE Leeds there are more than enough faults to ensure that the outcrop of the Black Band outcrops bounces all over including around the Wyke Beck valley floor [I will address this in detail in due course]


Oh just as I thought we would hit the answer to the $1M dollar question you leave us good sir!!!

The idea has been that the Wyke Beck bloomeries dug iron from the Ironhills. But as you indicate bell pits in that location would probably not reach the deep seams that carry the ore.
So the massive question is where did the Bloomeries obtain the ore if it was not near the surface at Ironhills way above the Wykebeck......

My proposition to be shot down is strengthened by your confirmation that due to faulting which I understand, and the erosion of waterways that cut into the ground and expose the lower strata, then the ore bearing coal seam can and apparently does outcrop along the Wyke beck.

So any bloomery along the beck certainly can access ore from that outcrop?? Would I be naive to now assume that the medieval bloomeries dug ore from the valley sides??

This then leads to question 2. I can date Ironworks smelting iron in Leeds back to 1844 at Knowesthorpe?? However Foundry Mill dates back to 1780.

For you and Warrington Rhino is there any connection with Foundry Mill "speculative venture" forging steel implements with the local coal mining industry being able to mine and smelt the raw material for the mill?? Abbeydale tell me was Blister steel?

I note Low Moor started in 1791.....Were the Knowesthorpe coal mines hitting the ironstone by then?? Were they smelting it and sending it up the valley (For Thorpe Ironworks and Foundry Mill share the same valley) to the Foundry Mill??

The Parksider
PostsCOLON 1546
JoinedCOLON Sat 10 Nov, 2007 3:55 am

Re: Iron works

Postby The Parksider » Sun 29 May, 2016 1:04 am

The Parksider wroteColon
grumpytramp wroteColon
The Parksider wroteColonJust north of that along York Road back down from the White Horse the strata is listed as alternating layers of "coal" and "Parting". (here's another word that I don't understand that has probably left all but the geologists vocabulary - anyone?)

Is this the strata noted from shafts on south accommodation road??

I assume these surveys are at different depths. If the black bed ironstone is at tunnel level in Leeds could it not be easily reached eastwards in the depth of the Wyke Beck Valley from bell pits, as opposed to up on the hill at seacroft "ironhills"???


Parkie, running out of time tonight so quickly in brief capturing at least a few of your questions!

The detail shown on the first series OS sheet are a combination of data obtained from the operating collieries (depths to seam and their thickness in shafts, recorded underground faulting in coal seams etc) and field geologist observations (the records at the Richmond Hill Tunnel and Wyke Beck you refer to are almost certainly physical exposures at the surface at the related exposure in the cutting adjacent to the tunnel and in the eroded east bank respectively).

Parting is a common mining term for a band of dirt (non-coal typically shale, mudstone, fireclay etc between beds of coal)

If you trace the outcrop of any coal seam in East Leeds it doesn't follow a straight or even a curved line. Geological faults change the horizontal and vertical alignment of coal seams. The bottom line is NE Leeds there are more than enough faults to ensure that the outcrop of the Black Band outcrops bounces all over including around the Wyke Beck valley floor [I will address this in detail in due course]


Oh just as I thought we would hit the answer to the $1M dollar question you leave us good sir!!!

The idea has been that the Wyke Beck bloomeries dug iron from the Ironhills. But as you indicate bell pits in that location would probably not reach the deep seams that carry the ore.
So the massive question is where did the Bloomeries obtain the ore if it was not near the surface at Ironhills way above the Wykebeck......

My proposition to be shot down is strengthened by your confirmation that due to faulting which I understand, and the erosion of waterways that cut into the ground and expose the lower strata, then the ore bearing coal seam can and apparently does outcrop along the Wyke beck.

So any bloomery along the beck certainly can access ore from that outcrop?? Would I be naive to now assume that the medieval bloomeries dug ore from the valley sides??

This then leads to question 2. I can date Ironworks smelting iron in Leeds back to 1844 at Knowesthorpe?? However Foundry Mill dates back to 1780.

For you and Warrington Rhino is there any connection with Foundry Mill "speculative venture" forging steel implements with the local coal mining industry being able to mine and smelt the raw material for the mill?? Abbeydale tell me was Blister steel?

I note Low Moor started in 1791.....Were the Knowesthorpe coal mines hitting the ironstone by then?? Were they smelting it and sending it up the valley (For Thorpe Ironworks and Foundry Mill share the same valley) to the Foundry Mill??


I note your around at the Mo?

Any expert comments on my prevous post

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