Digging up Leeds

Post by **cnosni** » Mon 26 Apr, 2010 12:14 pm

tilly wrote: Brandy wrote: tilly wrote: cnosni wrote: tilly wrote: Brandy wrote: grumpytramp wrote: Phill_dvsn wrote: And this is the result if your not carefulhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxmar3l1nis&feature=relatedThe hole collapses on him, and they have to dig him out lol I have to admit watching the first Youtube videos was interesting but I steadily became more and more un-nerved by what I was watching!Having spent my whole working life involved in digging and working in holes (trenchs, tunnels to multi-million m3 holes), I was absolutely horrified at the blatent risks taken working in unsupported excavations in poor ground conditions.It would not have taken much for the outcome of the video above to have been much much worse. The buried lads friends would have felt particular stupid explaining to family/friends that his death or serious injury was all for a few old bottles and could have been prevented by digging a stable batter or using some simple shoring?Lord alone knows what pocessed them to post that at all ............. perhaps a desire to "show the world just how stupid we can be?"If the incident and practices demonstrated in that video had been in a workplace, I suspect all involved would be picking up their P45s and the employer would have their collar felt by the HSE (for example in the last few weeks http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2010/coi-e-58.htm )I am neither suggesting or advocating that they should desist from their digging, just they engage their brains to either form a stable batter (slope) or shore up their excavations ............ thats said they can steer well clear of any of my sites! Not to mention getting your collar felt by the law!Leeds City Council Have a total blanket ban on metal detecting on any of there land so i think this will also stretch too digging 10ft holes for bottles! lol Hi brandy thats a new one to me how can they stop me going on post hill say to metal detect they would have to prove i was doing damage i pay rates to Leeds City Council so as far has i am concerned i have the right follow my hobby.I had this out some years ago with the Tong and Cockersdale country warden he said i could not detect in the woods my answer to him was i would need a J C B to do the damage the horse riders do in that part of the wood.I can see a case if someone dug in a bowling green or flower beds but as for other areas i dont think it would stand a chance in court I for one replace the ground back as it was so has far as i am concerned let them take me to court i would love to know what the charge would be. Its not about returning the ground as it was,its not about the damage to the surface.The charge would be robbing the rest of us of our heritage and history,be it bottles,ceramics,pipes etc etc etc.Its belongs to all of us,not to the highest bidder for the finds nor the personal glory in finding such artefacts.Paying rates does not exempt anyone from the law,whichever law they choose to either adhere to or ignore.If such a pretext did exist then i could burgle your house for my own profit,just because i pay "my rates"Look at the Hungate dig in York,imagine if unsolicited and unlicenced digging had occured on this site in the past then we would have been robbed of a historical window of Yorkshire from a thousand years ago.Doing these excavations without proper accounting and subsequent selling on of discoveries may see like "founders keepers" to elements of our generation ,but would be viewed by our descendants in a thousand years as akin to grave robbing.Please be ameteur archaeologists,look for these obscure sites and their currently "unimportant finds" but at least try and appear to be more than some flea market supplier by actually "giving " the finds to a local museum,without profit.After all a hobby is a pastime,not a career in itself. Look at it this way any one who likes a drink is not a alcoholic its the same with my hobby just because i go metal detecting does not mean i go on historic sites the things i find a museum would throw in the bin. The oldest thing i have found was a shoe buckle from the seventeen hundreds this i gave to the Fulneck Museum because it was lost by one of there school children has to its worth i would say pence not pounds.I allso go fishing that does mean i go giill netting salmon its not a good thing to tar every one with the same brush.This is just what the council are doing i have been in the woods and stoped kids shooting birds with air rifles starting fires chopping down trees so that far outways the so called damage i am supposed to be doing.The sooner people realize that there are responsible people out there with metal detectors the better.A lot of the hoards that have been found on farm land might never have been found but for a metal detector they were not on historic sites as you can see i have very strong views on this subject. Yes i agree with you tilly. Most of the farms i go on now(with permission)are using new modern fertilisers that are speeding up the way the stuff in the ground corrodes to the point that most of the stuff wouldn't be around in the next few years anyway.And the normal run of the mill day for me is digging out and removing bits of lead and shotgun caps lol.Not to mention the thousands of buttons and bits of other rubbish lol.Lets put it this way the Staffordshire Hoard, the largest archaeological Anglo-Saxon find ever unearthed in the uk was found by one man,in a field with his detector................nuff said! Thanks for that Brandy. And of course if i found something of historic value then i would not keep it as for stealing other peoples history they can come around to my house and i will give them all the junk i have found.With me its more of being out on my own in the fresh air and the frill of finding a badge or an old penny if thats stealing history god help us. Ps Its been said before the law is an [edited for content] i rest my case. Pps should i have put donkey? Well with all due respect gentlemen there are as many instances of metal detectorists NOT doing what you have done,that is staying away from historical sites and when you have found something if historical value then placing it in a suitable repository.I dont think for one minute that either of you would act in such a manner,but,paying your rates does not give you the right to do and go whatever you want on land where the land owner says you cannot do it.Phil goes places no person (or mole ) should go,but he doesnt say he CAN go because he pays his rates.He goes where maybe he shouldnt and is willing to take the consequences fo his actions.Some laws are "donkeys" but when you start to pick and choose which law YOU should either adhere to or ignore then it gives the rest of us liberty do so as well,and then what do we have?People,perhaps even Brandy,coming and digging up your garden

tilly · Post by **tilly** » Mon 26 Apr, 2010 1:01 pm

Hi cnosni The reason i said i pay my rates is because i live in Leeds and pay towards the upkeep of every thing in Leeds .Leeds City Council do not own the land they are keepers in a way and look after the interests of us all.I for one think i have as much right to go in the woods with a metal detector has i have to walk around Rounday PARK or fish in the lake.Because they bring out a law that says its ilegal does not make them right if every law was right then we would still have seven year old children working twelve hour shifts or if you lived in Halifax and you stole any thing worth more than a shilling you could be beheaded.If you make a law then it should be viewed from all angles.By the way how are you keeping its good to be able to air ones views without any animosity to me thats what sl is all about.

Brandy · Post by **Brandy** » Mon 26 Apr, 2010 1:30 pm

cnosni wrote: tilly wrote: Brandy wrote: tilly wrote: cnosni wrote: tilly wrote: Brandy wrote: grumpytramp wrote: Phill_dvsn wrote: And this is the result if your not carefulhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxmar3l1nis&feature=relatedThe hole collapses on him, and they have to dig him out lol I have to admit watching the first Youtube videos was interesting but I steadily became more and more un-nerved by what I was watching!Having spent my whole working life involved in digging and working in holes (trenchs, tunnels to multi-million m3 holes), I was absolutely horrified at the blatent risks taken working in unsupported excavations in poor ground conditions.It would not have taken much for the outcome of the video above to have been much much worse. The buried lads friends would have felt particular stupid explaining to family/friends that his death or serious injury was all for a few old bottles and could have been prevented by digging a stable batter or using some simple shoring?Lord alone knows what pocessed them to post that at all ............. perhaps a desire to "show the world just how stupid we can be?"If the incident and practices demonstrated in that video had been in a workplace, I suspect all involved would be picking up their P45s and the employer would have their collar felt by the HSE (for example in the last few weeks http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2010/coi-e-58.htm )I am neither suggesting or advocating that they should desist from their digging, just they engage their brains to either form a stable batter (slope) or shore up their excavations ............ thats said they can steer well clear of any of my sites! Not to mention getting your collar felt by the law!Leeds City Council Have a total blanket ban on metal detecting on any of there land so i think this will also stretch too digging 10ft holes for bottles! lol Hi brandy thats a new one to me how can they stop me going on post hill say to metal detect they would have to prove i was doing damage i pay rates to Leeds City Council so as far has i am concerned i have the right follow my hobby.I had this out some years ago with the Tong and Cockersdale country warden he said i could not detect in the woods my answer to him was i would need a J C B to do the damage the horse riders do in that part of the wood.I can see a case if someone dug in a bowling green or flower beds but as for other areas i dont think it would stand a chance in court I for one replace the ground back as it was so has far as i am concerned let them take me to court i would love to know what the charge would be. Its not about returning the ground as it was,its not about the damage to the surface.The charge would be robbing the rest of us of our heritage and history,be it bottles,ceramics,pipes etc etc etc.Its belongs to all of us,not to the highest bidder for the finds nor the personal glory in finding such artefacts.Paying rates does not exempt anyone from the law,whichever law they choose to either adhere to or ignore.If such a pretext did exist then i could burgle your house for my own profit,just because i pay "my rates"Look at the Hungate dig in York,imagine if unsolicited and unlicenced digging had occured on this site in the past then we would have been robbed of a historical window of Yorkshire from a thousand years ago.Doing these excavations without proper accounting and subsequent selling on of discoveries may see like "founders keepers" to elements of our generation ,but would be viewed by our descendants in a thousand years as akin to grave robbing.Please be ameteur archaeologists,look for these obscure sites and their currently "unimportant finds" but at least try and appear to be more than some flea market supplier by actually "giving " the finds to a local museum,without profit.After all a hobby is a pastime,not a career in itself. Look at it this way any one who likes a drink is not a alcoholic its the same with my hobby just because i go metal detecting does not mean i go on historic sites the things i find a museum would throw in the bin. The oldest thing i have found was a shoe buckle from the seventeen hundreds this i gave to the Fulneck Museum because it was lost by one of there school children has to its worth i would say pence not pounds.I allso go fishing that does mean i go giill netting salmon its not a good thing to tar every one with the same brush.This is just what the council are doing i have been in the woods and stoped kids shooting birds with air rifles starting fires chopping down trees so that far outways the so called damage i am supposed to be doing.The sooner people realize that there are responsible people out there with metal detectors the better.A lot of the hoards that have been found on farm land might never have been found but for a metal detector they were not on historic sites as you can see i have very strong views on this subject. Yes i agree with you tilly. Most of the farms i go on now(with permission)are using new modern fertilisers that are speeding up the way the stuff in the ground corrodes to the point that most of the stuff wouldn't be around in the next few years anyway.And the normal run of the mill day for me is digging out and removing bits of lead and shotgun caps lol.Not to mention the thousands of buttons and bits of other rubbish lol.Lets put it this way the Staffordshire Hoard, the largest archaeological Anglo-Saxon find ever unearthed in the uk was found by one man,in a field with his detector................nuff said! Thanks for that Brandy. And of course if i found something of historic value then i would not keep it as for stealing other peoples history they can come around to my house and i will give them all the junk i have found.With me its more of being out on my own in the fresh air and the frill of finding a badge or an old penny if thats stealing history god help us. Ps Its been said before the law is an [edited for content] i rest my case. Pps should i have put donkey? Well with all due respect gentlemen there are as many instances of metal detectorists NOT doing what you have done,that is staying away from historical sites and when you have found something if historical value then placing it in a suitable repository.I dont think for one minute that either of you would act in such a manner,but,paying your rates does not give you the right to do and go whatever you want on land where the land owner says you cannot do it.Phil goes places no person (or mole ) should go,but he doesnt say he CAN go because he pays his rates.He goes where maybe he shouldnt and is willing to take the consequences fo his actions.Some laws are "donkeys" but when you start to pick and choose which law YOU should either adhere to or ignore then it gives the rest of us liberty do so as well,and then what do we have?People,perhaps even Brandy,coming and digging up your garden I see where your going with this chris and i agree with you to an extent mate.Obviously where you have scheduled monuments with valuable artefact's your going to have people come along hoping to make a fast buck in the dead of night but these arnt detectorist's there just thieves using a metal detector as a 'tool of trade'!Its kind of like saying B&Q should stop selling crowbars because there the weapon of choice for burglars even through there handy for getting nails out lol.anyway we are straying off-topic here we was talking about LCC's ban on MD'ing and to and extent i kind of agree with the council up to a point otherwise we would have people digging up roundhay park on a daily basis lol.The part of the ban i dont like is the part that stretches to tenant farmland(some of whom now have stopped me from going on there land)i have lost some good land due to this but thats life i suppose.

Cardiarms · Post by **Cardiarms** » Mon 26 Apr, 2010 1:46 pm

Where some may say stop and prevent the counccil will say protect and conserve.

tilly · Post by **tilly** » Mon 26 Apr, 2010 1:47 pm

With me Brandy its the fact i am not supposed to go metal detecting in my local woods it just gets me out of doors for a few hours. No im not going to take up bird watching haveing said that what ever hobby you have there will be someone somewere who will come up with a reason why you should not do it.

tilly · Post by **tilly** » Mon 26 Apr, 2010 1:56 pm

Cardiarms wrote: Where some may say stop and prevent the counccil will say protect and conserve. Hi Cardiarms If that is the case why do the council seem so intent on building on green belt land.Protect and conserve untill money shows its ugly head also if conserve is the councils plan what happend with York Road Baths one of many buildings they let rot?

Phill_dvsn · Post by **Phill_dvsn** » Mon 26 Apr, 2010 2:32 pm

tilly wrote: Cardiarms wrote: Where some may say stop and prevent the counccil will say protect and conserve. Hi Cardiarms If that is the case why do the council seem so intent on building on green belt land.Protect and conserve untill money shows its ugly head also if conserve is the councils plan what happend with York Road Baths one of many buildings they let rot? Yes very much double standards by the council on that front Tilly.I can see why the decent hobbiest Metal detector guys feel miffed been tarred with a bad brush. Also the blanket ban, without any common sense brought into it.I also see Csnosi's point about our heritage to be shared by all. That would happen in a perfect world, but of course it isn't.But at the end of it all boils down to the fact, that if you were the one who found some priceless artifact. And you sat down and suddenly realised that you could either....A. Hand it in to the relevant party so it could be kept in some National museum for all to see.OrB. Realise you needn't see a rainy Monday morning stood at the bus stop going to work at 7 a.m again. Instead you could retire to the Costa del sol to sit out in the sun with your feet up for evermore.The choice is yours.It's over to you guys

Cardiarms · Post by **Cardiarms** » Mon 26 Apr, 2010 2:49 pm

tilly wrote: Cardiarms wrote: Where some may say stop and prevent the counccil will say protect and conserve. Hi Cardiarms If that is the case why do the council seem so intent on building on green belt land.Protect and conserve untill money shows its ugly head also if conserve is the councils plan what happend with York Road Baths one of many buildings they let rot? I'm not an apologist for the council. they get a lot wrong. As Phil points out a regulation to prevent uncontrolled extraction of material would seem to be a sensible regulation for the scenario he paints. I'm no expert but I'm guessing that in law removing artefacts from council property, be they buried in an old tip or field is the same as stripping York Road baths of its fixtures and fittings (if any are left).

tilly · Post by **tilly** » Mon 26 Apr, 2010 9:37 pm

I will give you an idea how my mind works a few years ago at a boot sale i bought a brest drill it was a nice bit of kit it was not very big but it was made so it came apart.I started to clean it and found it was stamped with the name Thackery. What did i do i went into Leeds to the Thackery Museum it was at that time not open to the public i knocked on the door and was let in i told them i wanted to donate this drill i spent over one hour in there i was shown books on differant drills none like mine to cut a long story short they were delighted with my donation.

Post by **cnosni** » Tue 27 Apr, 2010 1:44 am

tilly wrote: I will give you an idea how my mind works a few years ago at a boot sale i bought a brest drill it was a nice bit of kit it was not very big but it was made so it came apart.I started to clean it and found it was stamped with the name Thackery. What did i do i went into Leeds to the Thackery Museum it was at that time not open to the public i knocked on the door and was let in i told them i wanted to donate this drill i spent over one hour in there i was shown books on differant drills none like mine to cut a long story short they were delighted with my donation. Top man!!