Foundry Mill at Seacroft

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warringtonrhino
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Re: Foundry Mill at Seacroft

Post by warringtonrhino »

on our honeymoon we visited a village in Wales called Furnace, it was named after the iron furnace which existed in the 1700's
On Sunday I went back to take some photos and try to learn more about the iron making process.
Despite the website advising it was open, it was not but I managed to walk around the outside, and photograph the water wheel.
It looks very similar to the John Smeaton one at Foundry Mill. On a board outside there is a diagram of the process, the blast was produced by cam operated bellows. Adjacent to the furnace is a waterfall, and water is taken from the top. along a mill race to the chute as shown on the photograph. I know i don't live in Leeds and Furnace is not in Leeds either, but I hope it helps understand more about Foundry mill, which is in Leeds :D
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tyke bhoy
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Re: Foundry Mill at Seacroft

Post by tyke bhoy »

It looks like you were lucky with the weather WR.
living a stones throw from the Leeds MDC border at Lofthousehttp://tykebhoy.wordpress.com/

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Leodian
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Re: Foundry Mill at Seacroft

Post by Leodian »

Thanks warringtonrhino for those photos of that water wheel. :)

It is at least 30 years ago now that I first came across the then already ruins of Scarcroft Mill (a corn mill) near Bardsey, but the likely position of a wheel (water driven?) could still be made out by a large slot in the stonework (no sign of a wheel). The site gradually came more ruined and much of it cannot be seen now with heavy overgrowth of plants covering the collapsed (knocked down?) structure at where I think there might have been a wheel. Some of the site buildings are though still fairly intact (at least when I was last there during May 2015).
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The Parksider
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Re: Foundry Mill at Seacroft

Post by The Parksider »

warringtonrhino wrote:ANY COMMENTS PLEASE

I have drawn the plan of Foundry Mill based on John Smeaton’s plans and details from The Royal Society.
Main comment? Absolutely excellent research and fascinating stuff from you and GT.

I thought (with no great research so maybe I assumed) that Mathers Corn mill had a damn up near the wetherby road where on old maps you can see a circular area of water by the wyke beck and that the corn mill was on the beck possibly in the back gardens of the grange park where old OS maps show rough ground.

I have no great analysis for the old weir that can still be found in the beck albeit a bit more covered up, what it was originally built for and to do. Could it be really old and could it have speeded the water for the Bloomeries? I thought the long leat for foundry Mill started at Easterly Road. Old Maps seem to show this?

I've seen a reference to more than one Mill in Seacroft long ago which I'll dig out, and in Burt's book the map shows "cynder Hills" which positions the old bloomeries(s).

I have always been confused a bit about the "Foundry" Edmund Bogg stated was for making things out of iron so I assumed pig iron was being brought in and processed there and the furnace was for melting it back down?? Before being "forged" into items??

Smeatons system of pumping water back up I have seen a reference to which (wrongly?) said it was back up from the beck on another reference, make more sense if he was re-cycling that water back post leaving the wheel??- is that how you see it WR?

These things in outline are fascinating enough - working out the detail is great.....

warringtonrhino
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Re: Foundry Mill at Seacroft

Post by warringtonrhino »

The Parksider wrote:
warringtonrhino wrote:ANY COMMENTS PLEASE

I have drawn the plan of Foundry Mill based on John Smeaton’s plans and details from The Royal Society.
Main comment? Absolutely excellent research and fascinating stuff from you and GT.

I thought (with no great research so maybe I assumed) that Mathers Corn mill had a damn up near the wetherby road where on old maps you can see a circular area of water by the wyke beck and that the corn mill was on the beck possibly in the back gardens of the grange park where old OS maps show rough ground.

I have no great analysis for the old weir that can still be found in the beck albeit a bit more covered up, what it was originally built for and to do. Could it be really old and could it have speeded the water for the Bloomeries? I thought the long leat for foundry Mill started at Easterly Road. Old Maps seem to show this?

I've seen a reference to more than one Mill in Seacroft long ago which I'll dig out, and in Burt's book the map shows "cynder Hills" which positions the old bloomeries(s).

I have always been confused a bit about the "Foundry" Edmund Bogg stated was for making things out of iron so I assumed pig iron was being brought in and processed there and the furnace was for melting it back down?? Before being "forged" into items??

Smeatons system of pumping water back up I have seen a reference to which (wrongly?) said it was back up from the beck on another reference, make more sense if he was re-cycling that water back post leaving the wheel??- is that how you see it WR?

These things in outline are fascinating enough - working out the detail is great.....
Mathers dam-weir was still around when Easterly Road was being extended to Wetherby Road.
I have attached a plan and photograph which clearly shows it. Bear in mind that at the time of the photograph, the weir had been breached so that water could follow the original route down Wyke Beck. Which meant that the leat was dry and reverting back to vegetation.

There was more than one mill in Seacroft, Foundry Mill and the Windmill at the north of the village.
Somewhere I have a reference to a windmill on the hill opposite Foundry Mill - where The Oval is now, but its very obscure and not substantiated.

The bloomeries may have been near the cynder hills. Contours of the Wyke Beck in that area were too shallow to create a dam for water power. They would have been naturally ventilated or had manual bellows.

It is impossible for a waterwheel to power a pump that lifts water back up to the head race-if it was electricity would be free!!!
The centreline of the waterwheel was at ground level, so once used the water would be in a pit. The 'pump' would lift the water up to ground level so that it could then flow down into Wyke Beck.
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Mathers weir 5.jpg
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asket hill ford 5.jpg
asket hill ford 5.jpg (40.31 KiB) Viewed 3200 times

grumpytramp
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Re: Foundry Mill at Seacroft

Post by grumpytramp »

WR you have done some great work condensing and illustrating this fascinating subject.

I have a few contributions to make, but for now I will tackle this
warringtonrhino wrote:ANY COMMENTS PLEASE

On Smeaton’s plan there is no evidence that corn was milled unless the early mill with an undershot wheel was still in use elsewhere.

On Smeaton’s plans there are two water wheels, but all commentaries regarding the mill, only mention a single wheel and when the mill was demolished there was only one wheel.
Were the plans, which are based on dimensioned scale drawings, only half built?
Significantly the Smeaton plan, does not match the outline shown on any OS map.

Option 1
The building was built complete as shown on Smeaton’s plans.
When the ironwork ceased, the Boring House was demolished and the water wheel removed from the site. The building was remodelled to suit corn milling requirements.

Option 2
The foundry was not completed as Smeaton’s plans, the Boring House and waterwheel were not built. When ironworking ceased the building was remodelled to suit corn milling requirements.
There is absolutely no doubt that Smeaton's design for the Seacroft Furnace equipped with it's Fire Engine and twin waterwheels was constructed at Foundry Mill. John Farey (see above) in his "A Treatise on the Steam Engine, Historical, Practical and Descriptive" describes his father having visited the works in 1782 and having sketched the arrangement. Farey was a diligent researcher and would have noted any significant variances in his father's sketches to Smeaton's published design.

So I think you can have confidence Option 1 is correct and that the works were constructed to Smeaton's designs.

There is some evidence to back this up.

In Smeaton's reports on the Seacroft Coke Furnace he states:
let us for the present suppose the water wheel to be overshot of twenty eight feet


see https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gEU ... ft&f=false

The water wheel that was in-situ when Leeds Corporation removed it was recorded by H Reece of the Housing Department of Leeds Corporation as being 30' diameter. E Kilburn Scott in a paper to the Newcomen Society describes it as being 30' diameter and 4'6" wide at the bucket with wheel rotating towards the leat and water falling into the buckets by about 3'. He also provides as illustrations Smeaton's design of the water wheel which was equipped with twelve radial supports "spokes" from the axle and a drawing of the in-situe corn mill wheel removed by the Corporation which had sixteen radial supports "spokes" from axle

This suggests some time after 1812 when the mill was acquired by Wilson family (Squires of Seacroft) the mill was stripped of the ironworks equipment for replacement with a corn milling equipment. Either then or later a replacement single slightly larger water wheel was installed (probably between 1847 and 1891-92 when it appears the existing site was substantially changed.

This can be seen in the mapping history

In the Tithe Maps, the building can be interpreted to broadly confirm with the 'general sketch for Seacroft Furnace' shown above

Tithe map published in 1841:
Foundry Mill - Tithe Map 1841.jpg
Foundry Mill - Tithe Map 1841.jpg (39.33 KiB) Viewed 3157 times
Similarly broadly the same general arrangement is shown on the First Series OS 6" to a mile maps, surveyed in 1847:
Foundry Mill - 0S Map surveyed1847.jpg
Foundry Mill - 0S Map surveyed1847.jpg (61.69 KiB) Viewed 3157 times
However in the next 6" to a mile survey completed in 1891-92 the sites arrangements have been radically altered:
Foundry Mill - 0S Map surveyed1891-92.jpg
Foundry Mill - 0S Map surveyed1891-92.jpg (60.06 KiB) Viewed 3157 times
Now after over a week of Forth Road Bridge related chaos I am going to drink beer, sip malt whisky and enjoy a few tunes. I shall respond in due course on my thoughts about Mather

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Brunel
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Re: Foundry Mill at Seacroft

Post by Brunel »

Just Rx'd a FLOOD ALERT for the WYKEBECK VALLEY.

Hardly surprising.


https://flood-warning-information.servi ... tion=leeds

grumpytramp
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Re: Foundry Mill at Seacroft

Post by grumpytramp »

So to the subject of Mather's dam and leat at Eller's Close and its relationship with Foundry Mill

Here I think Warrington Rhino's interpretation is only partly correct.
1577 Surface water previously adequate was not sufficient for a larger mill.
Elizabeth I gave permission for Christopher Mather to make a leat from Ellers Close in Roundhay (where Easterly Road now crosses the Wykebeck) to the mill in Seacroft. This was in return for his (first) draining the colliery and watercourses (in the Killingbeck area) It took the water from Wyke Beck at the bottom of Asket Hill and from the streams which flowed from the Rein and above Fox Wood. It ran along the 188ft contour, which took it towards Asket Crescent, across the lower school playing fields, along Brooklands Drive, over South Parkway, and via Moresdale Lane to the Foundry Mill. In the late 1940’s the leat was filled in to make way for the new Seacroft housing estates, and its water rediverted into the old stream which for 4000 years had taken only the surplus and flood waters.The Foundry Mill was extended
I cannot criticise WR any way for this interpretation as there is documentary evidence confirming a direct connection between the leat and Foundry Mill. For example in the "Records of the parish of Whitkirk" published in 1892 by George Moreton Platt and John William Morkill in a description of one of the parish's most famous sons, describes
In the immediate neighbourhood of his home may still be seen two specimens of Smeaton's ingenuity — the hydraulic ram at Temple Newsam, by means of which water is forced to the level of the hall, a height of twenty-six feet (mentioned by Smiles) ; and a water-wheel at the Foundry Mill, in the parish of Seacroft. The latter, which has a diameter of thirty feet six inches, is turned by a force of water brought by a conduit from a point in the Wyke beck at Roundhay, about a mile distant.
CA Lupton (presumably a member of the Lupton family so closely associated with Roundhay and Leeds) wrote in an account of John Smeaton published in the Publications of the Thoresby Society, Miscellany Vol 15, Part 3 in 1973 states:
However that may be, Queen Elizabeth I in 1577 granted to one Christopher Mather the right to make a leat from Ellers Close in Roundhay to his mill in Seacroft 'which he has latterly built'. This leat, originally a mile long , began where now Easterly Road crosses the Wyke Beck and can be still traced for about half a mile. The remainder has completely disappeared beneath the new Seacroft Estate. In my childhood it was nearly all visible. It seems probable that Christopher Mather rebuilt and enlarged the old mills, increased his water supply by this remarkable leat - a wonderful achievement of calculated levels"
The last sentence is where my old doubts resurface.

WR's excellent diagrams and sections illustrate a huge problem with this interpretation. I have measured the distance along Mathers Leat the assumed link to the junction of Foundry Mills own leat which I reckon is approximately 3500' and to the Foundry Mill itself 6400'. The assumption that the level of the leat from the weir at Ellers Close to the Sluice Paddle at the mill is 188' is wrong.
A leat (and for that matter a trunk foul water sewer) requires a fall otherwise there is very low flow and inevitable silting problems (which in a trunk sewer is a potential serious and very smelly problem :D ). I would have expected that a leat of this length to have a fall of approximately 1 in 150 dropping the level at the junction at the Foundry Mill leat to 165' making an effective hydraulic connection extremely doubtful.

Smeaton's own report on the workings of the Foundry Mill clearly suggest that the supply of water at the mill were very poor, hence the construction of the fire engine to pump recycled water to the mills wheels

I think the confusion has arisen from the happy coincidence that Christopher Mathers mill at Seacroft is described as having two water wheels under one roof and his grant related to draining mines; while Smeaton designed two water wheels and that water was been obtained from colliery drainage at "Mr Porter's Drain".

From the small amount of information on Christopher Mather I have seen, he was clearly a "big cheese" in the area securing rights to work coal throughout the area including Whinmoor and Brown Moor. So I wonder why would he have attempted, on acquiring rights from the Crown to dam the Wyke Beck and build a leat, to tease water to the vicinity of Foundry Mill when he could simply run his leat along the valley side harvesting all the side streams before turning a right angle back to the Wyke Beck to a mill where he could have a undershot water wheel in the beck and an overshot wheel using the full head of the leat?. Surely the most efficient way to exploit the effort/expense of damming the Beck?

I am certain that the location of Christopher Mather's mill is somewhere in the floor of the Wyke Beck valley below Foundry Mill.

So how do I explain the reference above linking Mather's leat with Foundry Mill. Well my hypothesis is that after the failure of the ironworks, when converting to a corn mill and in a desire to secure more water a deep trench was cut to intercept Mather's leat and a culvert installed (hence some references to a tunnel)

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Leodian
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Re: Foundry Mill at Seacroft

Post by Leodian »

Brunel wrote:Just Rx'd a FLOOD ALERT for the WYKEBECK VALLEY.

Hardly surprising.


https://flood-warning-information.servi ... tion=leeds
I've just been looking at river levels in the Environment Agency website and its not surprising that there are/were flood alerts. The River Aire at the Armley recording site for example rose about 2 metres between 10.00 and 18.00 and Wykebeck rose about 1 metre in the same period but has fallen sharply since. It's sure been very wet today!
A rainbow is a ribbon that Nature puts on when she washes her hair.

warringtonrhino
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Re: Foundry Mill at Seacroft

Post by warringtonrhino »

During the 20+ years I have been researching Foundry Mill and Mather’s Leat, I have had correspondence, discussion and consultations with highways engineers, housing estate planners, drainage consultants, British Waterways, terrain surveyors and hydrology modellers. The conclusions below are based on their professional expert opinions together with maps and contemporary descriptions, for these reasons I am reluctant to adopt any conflicting opinions. The specific details and acknowledgements will be included within the book that I am producing.

1.00 THE LEAT
1.01The level of the water at the Easterly Road end was approx 188 feet. Because that was the level of the track at the old bridge.

1.02 The leat followed the 188 foot contour. The channel may have been raised or sunken slightly but the surface water level was approximately 188 feet. ’’ I would have expected that a leat of this length to have a fall of approximately 1 in 150’’ The leat followed the 188 foot contour, consequently at the Foundry Mill it would have been in a 23 foot deep channel.

1.03 The leat did not have an incline. It followed the 188 foot contour and was virtually level. Water would flow down the leat because it was fed by a stream at one end and emptied by a sluice at the other. A ‘’trunk foul water sewer’’ does require a fall because it is not being constantly flushed by a large stream. The leat on the other hand did have a substantial constant flow of clean water.

1.04 The majority of the leat was masonry lined. This would reduce ground water seepage and silting. Some silting may have occurred at stream cross over points, but the constant flow of water would have kept it to a manageable minimum.

1.05 ‘’dropping the level at the junction at the Foundry Mill leat to 165' making an effective hydraulic connection extremely doubtful’’. You suggest that the leat had an incline, then claim that an inclined leat would not work. How odd!

2.00 FOUNDRY MILL
2.01 ‘’In the Tithe Maps, the building can be interpreted to broadly confirm with the general sketch for Seacroft Furnace'’ I have placed the Smeaton plan of the Foundry Mill building on the Tithe Map, (see below) I don’t share the opinion that they are ‘’broadly’’ similar.

2.02
Having been involved in the design and construction of several hundred buildings, I can confirm that the first drawing created is a ‘’plan as proposed’’ and finally an ‘’ as built plan ‘’ is produced. The drawings are never the same. On Smeaton’s plans there are two water wheels, but all commentaries regarding the mill, only mention a single wheel and when the mill was demolished there was only one wheel. Is Smeatons drawings, a '''Plan as Proposed''?

3.00 THE OTHER MILL
3.01 ‘’I am certain that the location of Christopher Mather's mill is somewhere in the floor of the Wyke Beck valley below Foundry Mill’’
Yes there was a corn mill on Wyke Beck below Seacroft it was called White Bridge Mill.
The 100m wide Wyke Beck corridor was never developed, any mill and its supply roads would appear on OS maps as a building or at least a ruin. If there was a mill on Wyke Beck near to the Seacroft Mill. Where is the supporting evidence that makes you certain it was there?
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